Blind Spellcasters -- You don't face any direction.

[DM2]

I have been scorned for my reluctance to accept that there is NO FACING in D&D. Right? No front, no back. Everyone on a battlefield is assumed to be scanning 360 degrees, etc. This is why a Monk deflecting arrows doesn't have to declare which direction he's facing. This is why (ridiculous as it is) you don't get any bonus for attacking someone's back and why a rogue doesn't get a sneak attack by sneaking behind someone...there's no behind.

No more ridiculous than telling the fighter "sorry, even though you know the unhidden rogue is there, he gets to walk 30 feet around behind you and then stab you in the back with huge bonuses to hit and damage."

Because, you know, when a trained warrior is attacking 2 men, rogue and fighter, he'll always ignore one to attack the other one, turning his back...

So that being the case for combatants, shouldn't it be true for spellcasters? There is another thread asking about "Cloudkill" and how the wizard simply casts in the direction he's facing...but that runs into the problem. He's not definitively facing anywhere, and there's not a rule-defined mechanism for him to assert one.

SO, let's say a Spellcaster is casting Fireball or Lightning Bolt. Let's say he didn't declare a target when he first announced the spell to the DM and he is suddenly struck blind before releasing the spell -- he can't target...

As you say, this is some house rule in another thread, not something the designers put in the PH or DMG...

Of course every once and a while situations will come up where rules don't cover something a character wants to do, and a DM and/or player will have to decide something based on the story.

DM "You're blind"
Player "I want to fireball the area where I last saw that group of undead"
DM "I don't see a rule for targetting while blind"
Player "Well, I was planning to do that anyway, so I probably would already have a decent idea where they are"
DM "Okay, I'll roll an 8-sided to see how far off your intended target you are. 1-2 on target, 3-4 off by 1, 5-6 off by 2, 7-8 off by 3"
Player "Sounds fair"

or whatever.

DM2

 

[wolfen]

Thanks to those who actually addressed the scenarios instead of just telling me I'm wrong. It helps to hear how other DM's might try to work out these situations.

I understand better, now, that this is a case where House Ruling might be more appropriate than jury-rigging rules that don't quite fit. That's a whole lot better than pretending a blind mage's spells are unaffected by his new disability.

As for targeting, I believe a lightning bolt is drawn to an exact point on the grid, and that a fireball A) shoots from an extended finger in some direction and/or (B) detonates at a particular point. Not being able to see a direction OR a point in space seemed a valid concern for a blind spellcaster hurling a fireball. You gotta point your finger somewhere. If you stand in a football field with your eyes closed, you're not likely to point at a precise point in space twice in a row.


wolfen

 

[niteshade6]

"IF true, this is silly and inconsistent. I haven't found one instance of "behind" regarding sneak attack or any other combat in any core book."

Please read what I wrote more carefuly. The rogue does not get the bonus because he's behind the enemy, he gets it because he sneaks up on his enemy who does not know he's there. It's logical to assume though that when he sneaks up on people he does so from behind although this may not always be the case.

" "Silent and hidden" is a buncha crap as an answer. "

I have no idea what you mean by this. Try explaining your arguments rather then just hurling insults.


"Another case in point: A deaf person and I are the only two people on the battlefield, and he is not yet threatened. I want to attack him from behind to get my "attacking from behind" bonus. How would I know when I can do that? What is the "attacking from behind" bonus you speak of?"

If he doesn't know your there, and you can attack him while he still doesn't know your there, you get a bonus as if you are invisible. Once again please read what I wrote more carefuly. Presumably if your not hidden and your attacking a deaf person who doesn't know your there your doing so from behind. However this is just flavor, the actual bonus you get is for being "invisible".


"It's the 3e attempt, but this is not entirely accurate because you do not have to be "behind" someone to flank them. 2 people 180 degrees from one another can't be behind the same humanoid, for example. WOTC created this flanking rule to avoid the facing question. Which one's facing the front of the enemy? "

Neither of them are because the target is trying to deal with both their attacks simultaneously, rather then suicidaly turning his back on one and lettimg them kill him. Thus they both get bonuses.


"The one attacking them" is the default answer, but then you see that you're not really getting a flanking bonus for being BEHIND them, are you?"

But it means about the same thing. I don't know why this bothers you so much.


"So in other words, you accept the idea that the wizard's sense of direction when blind is unerring. That's fine. But I can see how there might be other valid opinions."

No, I'm just telling you how the player would tell the Dm how he wants to target his spell. The dicusion was how you would do this without facing, which as I said is completely unnecesarily in this situation.

"I, for one, think that if you asked that same wizard to run down the hallway he just saw that eventually he's gonna run into a side wall. ""

I agree with you, and that's something you as a DM can adjudicate. You can roll to see if the lightning bolt is slightly off center, or if the fireball doesn't quite hit the spot he wanted it to. How you determine if this happens or not is up to you, but presumably intuit direction or it's 3.5 equivelent would help.


I

 

[eryndel]

A couple of points:

Re: Facing. It seems as if in D&D combat they've tried to avoid the issue of facing by saying if all combatants are visible and capable of defending themselves (i.e. get their Dex bonus) then a combatant will whirl around to make sure they are facing their opponents. If the opponents have them manuevered to such a point where the combatant has no choice but to turn their back on one to fight the other, they both get bonuses to attack (and sneak attacks if rogues) because the opponents are going to be timing their blows to attack when the combatant is weakest, (when their back is turned.) Such is usually not a big deal when one is not in melee. A combatant that isn't directly threatened are like facing in either
a) the direction they are moving in.
b) the direction they are firing a ranged weapon in.
c) the direction they are targeting a spell to.
d) some other arbitrary direction if they are just sort of standing around eating popcorn and jeering the bad guys.

These are all assumptions I've made from reading the combat rules.

Re: Blind Spellcasters: Well, even if a spell is an area of effect the PHB clearly states that the spellcaster still has to choose where the spell emanates from. If we are talking a very recent blindness like in the example, I'd say the spellcaster could still target the spell since the vision of it is still fresh in his mind and nothing presumably has disoriented him. Now, if a bunch of mooks bum rushed him, turning him around in a dememted game of "Pin the Tail on the Donkey," well, I just might have the wizard make a listen check as described above, or just trust to luck and roll randomly for direction and distance a la the grenade like weapon chart. Rapid, recent blindness, in my opinion, isn't a crippling thing until occurances happen that being to disorient you.

If you happen to be a spellcaster that is naturally blind, I'd hone those listen skills or else the party might not want you around for much longer.

Hope this helps.

 

[wolfen]

I agree with you, and that's something you as a DM can adjudicate. You can roll to see if the lightning bolt is slightly off center, or if the fireball doesn't quite hit the spot he wanted it to. How you determine if this happens or not is up to you, but presumably intuit direction or it's 3.5 equivelent would help.

This is all that was needed. As DM it's always up to me. I just wanted to hear how other DM's would rule.

This is a poor venue to discuss all the (mostly minor) problems introduced by pretending humanoids don't face any direction. I'll just stand behind what I've already posted and leave it at that.

Thanks for the post.

wolfen

 

[Pielorinho]

Although you cast a fireball onto a particular grid intersection, technically you're not targeting it, so you can cast it. This is an important difference between area spells and targeted spells.

If a wizard is suddenly blinded, and then his friends take him by the shoulders and spin him round and round while they recite a bit of childish doggerel, and then he tries to cast a fireball, then sure -- have him choose a targeting direction randomly.

But that's not what's going on. This isn't Pin the Fireball on the Donkey.

The wizard should remember reasonably well what the battlefield looked like at last glance,a nd can cast spells based on that information. If the battlefield changes, too bad! No more information (except that gained through listen checks and the like).

Are you any good at basketball? Try an experiment: Look at the basket, get ready to shoot, and then close your eyes and shoot. My guess is you'll be able to hit the backboard, at least -- you'll be able to come pretty close to what you were aiming at, despite being blind.

Daniel

 

[Madfox]

Fact 1 - The spellcaster can place an spread spell at exactly the points he wants. There is no chance for a scatter.

Facing is unimportant for these kind of spells if the wizard knows the area. He imagines the area while casting the spell and it then shoots towards it. If the wizard is facing in another direction I imagine the blob of flames curve around the wizard in the right direction. If you use any other explanation, you get to ask yourself how the wizard can judge distances without mistakes even at 500 ft.. So in case of a fireball the blind wizard would not miss if he knows the area and casts the spell at a spot. For example, casting a fire ball at that big oak next to the lake in that magical darkness should be no problem. Of course, casting it at the redcap somewhere in the darkness is virtually impossible (unless you succeed at that listen DC lot). Of course, a wizard could still just state a distance and a direction and if the wizard opt for such scatter is very well possible - though only as far as direction is concerned and NOT distance.

This does not work very well for line effects and cones. In these cases I would opt for the listen/scatter as well.

Fact is that the one time my group had a blind wizard among them, the wizard opted not to cast any spell at all. From a rolep-playing perspective the player had decided that even though he might be able to see who was standing were, his character obviously wasn't and so would never risk his relatives. The player never even bothered asking about how I would deal with it...