Blinking/See Inisibility=No Sneak Attack?

[jontherev]

This came up last night. My rogue has his ring of blinking on (activated of course), and the giant casts Invisibility Purge. Now, his miss chance is reduced to 20% obviously...but do I still get sneak attack? The reason I'm not so sure (the obvious answer should be 'NO'), is because blinking works against Blindsight as far as sneak attackability (new word?) goes. Therefore, if it works against BS, then IP or See Invisibility should not prevent SA's from blinking rogues either IMO.

Also, I have a slight beef with allowing See Inv. to locate a blinker. Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but SI doesn't let you see ethereal beings right? If I'm right on that, then this is simply a balance factor built into the spell not meant for dissection in this manner...in which case I think it should have stated that SI or IP would prevent the blinker from attacking as though invisible. But it doesn't...

Anywho, what do ya'll think about this?

 

[Dakhran the Dark]

See Invisibility does allow you to see ethereal and astral creatures and objects as well as invisible ones.

As far as the sneak attack goes, if he can see you and know your exact location, you don't get a sneak attack unless you flank him or catch him off-balance.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Blinking works against blindsight but not against see invisibility (as specified in the spell) and therefore most likely not against invisibility purge. There is very good indication from the text of the spell that the 50% miss chance comes partly from the fact that you're not physically there (that's the 20% miss chance you incur as well) and partly from the fact that you're invisible when you're not there. Since the text specifies that if the opponent can see invisible creatures, his miss chance is only 20% and that if he can see and strike ethereal creatures, he doesn't have a miss chance, it stands to reason that See Invisibility reduces the miss chance because it eliminates the concealment granted by the spell.

I'm not certain that means the creature should retain its dex bonus though. Blink seems to deny the opponent their dex bonus primarily because they can't predict when you will be solid. If the invisibility were the relevant part, Blindfight would help against it. Since See Invisibility doesn't change the inability to predict solidity, I think you should still be able to sneak attack your foes.

 

[Dakhran the Dark]

Well, the way I see it, the reason that Blindfight doesn't work is that since you don't have a physical presence on the Material Plane while moving, there's no breathing or sounds of footfalls to detect in order to discern your location.

However, with a visible presence to react to, I'd say that you'd get a DEX bonus to AC. The Blink spell says that the character "strikes as an invisible creature", then describes that this means they get a +2 to hit and the target is denied a DEX bonus. If the invisibility is removed, so should the effects of being invisible.

It is unclear on this, however. Hopefully it'll come up in a FAQ someday...

 

[jontherev]

Blinking works against blindsight but not against see invisibility (as specified in the spell) and therefore most likely not against invisibility purge. There is very good indication from the text of the spell that the 50% miss chance comes partly from the fact that you're not physically there (that's the 20% miss chance you incur as well) and partly from the fact that you're invisible when you're not there. Since the text specifies that if the opponent can see invisible creatures, his miss chance is only 20% and that if he can see and strike ethereal creatures, he doesn't have a miss chance, it stands to reason that See Invisibility reduces the miss chance because it eliminates the concealment granted by the spell.

I'm not certain that means the creature should retain its dex bonus though. Blink seems to deny the opponent their dex bonus primarily because they can't predict when you will be solid. If the invisibility were the relevant part, Blindfight would help against it. Since See Invisibility doesn't change the inability to predict solidity, I think you should still be able to sneak attack your foes.

Thanks to all. I didn't realize SI worked vs. ethereal beings. Still, I tend to agree with your analysis above. IMO, the 'strike as invisible' thing stems from a combination of the actual invisibility AND ethereality (popping in and out randomly). Also, remember that he only hears/smells the blinker 50% of the time, so his visual sense is pretty much all he can rely on, so maybe he still loses dex? I don't know. This would be a good rule to cover in the FAQ.

 

[0-hr]

Does it say somewhere that a victim loses his DEX bonus vs incorporeal opponents?



Didn't think so.

 

[Azger]

This came up last night. My rogue has his ring of blinking on (activated of course), and the giant casts Invisibility Purge. Now, his miss chance is reduced to 20% obviously...but do I still get sneak attack? The reason I'm not so sure (the obvious answer should be 'NO'), is because blinking works against Blindsight as far as sneak attackability (new word?) goes. Therefore, if it works against BS, then IP or See Invisibility should not prevent SA's from blinking rogues either IMO.

Invisibility purge does not let you see ethereal creatures.

From the SRD under Invis Purge

The character surrounds his or herself with a sphere of power with a radius of 5 feet per caster level that negates all forms of invisibility. Anything invisible becomes visible while in the area. Only creatures with no visible form, such as an invisible stalker, remain invisible.

Since being ethereal is not the same as being invisible, IP spell will not make ethereal creatures visible.

From the SRD under See Invis

The character sees any objects or beings that are invisible, as well as any that are astral or ethereal, as if they were normally visible.

See Invis specifically mentions astral and ethereal as an addition to invis things, thus further showing Invis Purge would not work.

Ok... having said all that... If the person can see ethereal creatures then you can track the movements of the blinking party and won't be caught off-guard when they attack, which is why see invis works. IP and Blindsight do not let you see ethereal and thus you would still be denied your dex bonus against the blinking creature.