Blinking VS See Invisible & True Seeing?
- Thread starter pawned79
- Start date
To be the devil's advocate
Blinking says "You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC."
and it goes on to explain that during the "blink" period, you are an ethereal creature.
"Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones.
An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures.
An ethereal creature can see and hear the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and insubstantial. Sight and hearing on the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet.
Force effects and abjurations affect you normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can’t attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane. Treat other ethereal creatures and objects as material."
True Seeing says: "Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces)."
True seeing does not normally see into the ethereal, unless the user changes his vision as stated. Unfortunately, it does not mention what kind of action it is, but it does make it clear you can't see normally and ethereally at the same time.
See Invisibility says: "You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible."
Since the Blink-invisibility is due to the temporary etherealness of the creature, it would seem clear that See Invisibility does negate it and has a distinct advantage over True Seeing in this case.
Any thoughts on this rather odd issue?
Blinking says "You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC."
and it goes on to explain that during the "blink" period, you are an ethereal creature.
"Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones.
An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures.
An ethereal creature can see and hear the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and insubstantial. Sight and hearing on the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet.
Force effects and abjurations affect you normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can’t attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane. Treat other ethereal creatures and objects as material."
True Seeing says: "Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces)."
True seeing does not normally see into the ethereal, unless the user changes his vision as stated. Unfortunately, it does not mention what kind of action it is, but it does make it clear you can't see normally and ethereally at the same time.
See Invisibility says: "You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible."
Since the Blink-invisibility is due to the temporary etherealness of the creature, it would seem clear that See Invisibility does negate it and has a distinct advantage over True Seeing in this case.
Any thoughts on this rather odd issue?
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
It is odd, I'd just ditch the whole 'refocussing' thing for true seeing and let it see ethereal as well as invisible straight off. It is already *significantly* worse than true seeing in three ways:Arravis said:
1) higher level slot
2) much shorter duration (pretty much 1 encounter rather than several encounters, less likely to be on in time to protect against an invisible ambush)
3) much, much shorter range (true seeing 60ft(?), See Invisible out to limit of vision!)
True Seeing is so much worse for most other circumstances I can't see any good reasons for making it yet worse!
Cheers
Infiniti2000
First Post
Flat-footed and denied your Dex bonus are not the same, so don't confuse them. Blink denies your opponent his Dex bonus, it does not make him flat-footed. Otherwise, I agree with Plane Sailing and say "no and no." I would not attribute an action to focusing true seeing, or, at worst, make it a free action.pawned79 said:
In support of the "no and no" argument...
From the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a): "An ethereal wall would be visible to someone using true seeing (or a similar effect). The rules don’t describe whether such objects block line of sight, but it’s reasonable to assume that they do. Thus, an ethereal wall would be visible as a wall to a creature that can see ethereal objects. Even though the creature could distinguish the wall from a material object, it still blocks vision (and thus line of sight) just as a normal wall would."
That seems to support the idea that True Seeing sees both the Ethereal and the prime at the same time.
From the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a): "An ethereal wall would be visible to someone using true seeing (or a similar effect). The rules don’t describe whether such objects block line of sight, but it’s reasonable to assume that they do. Thus, an ethereal wall would be visible as a wall to a creature that can see ethereal objects. Even though the creature could distinguish the wall from a material object, it still blocks vision (and thus line of sight) just as a normal wall would."
That seems to support the idea that True Seeing sees both the Ethereal and the prime at the same time.
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So, on my drive to work this morning, I think I figured it out...
Creatures on the ethereal plane exist on both the prime and the ethereal. On the ethereal plane, the creatures and objects are wholly there and completely visible. On the prime, the creatures and objects are there, but invisible and incorporeal (insubstantial, but still there). See Invisibility sees such creatures and objects, but it's not able to transcend vision into the ethereal plane. True Seeing sees invisible creatures and objects (including those from the ethereal plane), but is additionally able to see wholly into the ethereal plane.
Well, I hope that clarifies things somewhat.
Any comments, ideas, or suggestions on this?
Creatures on the ethereal plane exist on both the prime and the ethereal. On the ethereal plane, the creatures and objects are wholly there and completely visible. On the prime, the creatures and objects are there, but invisible and incorporeal (insubstantial, but still there). See Invisibility sees such creatures and objects, but it's not able to transcend vision into the ethereal plane. True Seeing sees invisible creatures and objects (including those from the ethereal plane), but is additionally able to see wholly into the ethereal plane.
Well, I hope that clarifies things somewhat.
Any comments, ideas, or suggestions on this?
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Arravis said:
Noooo... very different.
A ghost has a special ability (Manifestation) that allows it to coexist on the Ethereal, and in an incorporeal state on the Material. If it's not using that ability, it isn't present on the Material plane (though it can still be seen with See Invisibility).
An creature who is simply on the Ethereal plane cannot be struck by a Ghost Touch weapon, for example; a creature who is present on the Material plane but incorporeal can. The two are not the same thing at all.
Similarly, an incorporeal creature has a 50% chance to take damage from a magic weapon or spell; an Ethereal creature who has no presence on the Material plane has no chance (barring Force effects or Abjurations).
-Hyp.
