Bloat already?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've been really excited about 4e... and EnWorld has been my only source of information about it. One of the things that made 3.5 start to bog down after a while (to me at least) was the insane variety of classes, prestige classes, and races available to players.

It seems like people are clamoring for such and such race and new power sources with 4 more classes. How many classes do we actually need?

As a slightly related aside. I've been irritated by the fact that they standardized the appearance of tieflings. It seems like the design decision has been to create a lot of little boxes that players can jump into, rather than give players a toolkit to build what they want.

I'm starting to think I'd prefer just four classes: Leader, Controller, Striker, and Defender. Feat chains would determine the primary power source.

Eh... this is turning into a rant.

Fin.

There's only 8 classes in the PH, less than in 3.x. I wouldn't sweat it. No one is forcing you to buy the additional splats.

 

[Aristotle]

There are different kinds of games. There are classless games where you can build a character up, mixing and matching pieces, to create the character you conceive. There are games with many specific classes. D&D has been one of these for a long time. If you consider that "bloat" then yes, 4E will be bloated.

I don't love bloat. I'd be very happy with a generic system of character creation or a system with just 1 class per power source that can be customized... but I'm content in knowing that just because there are dozens of playable races and classes doesn't mean that they all have to be playable in the campaign I am currently running.

 

[The_Fan]

The difference is that this time the additional races, classes, etc. are being planned from the beginning. PHB1 is being written with PHB2 in mind, and likely PHB2 will be written with PHB3 in mind. This is being done so that fewer toes are stepped on and niches are preserved. For example, adding psionics will not add to bloat because there's already a psion-shaped hole in the system.

 

[Nytmare]

I've never really seen a problem with a flood of new content with any of the groups that I have played with. All of that new information is important to keep new players coming in, old players from leaving, and keep the company supporting my god-awful habit afloat.

That being said however, the reason why none of my groups, past or present, ever really had a problem with it is because though we like having that wealth of information, we all like to run and play in games with an agreed upon set of restrictions for the PCs. Past campaigns have included things like "all characters are part of a halfling cavalry unit", "all characters are multiclassed clerics of a specific god", or simple book restrictions like "We're only using the PHB, PHB2, and the rogue splat book."

None of us really enjoy the "We're an adventuring party who met in a tavern. Our party is made up of a mimic barbarian, a vampire paladin of Pelor, a pixie monk, and a half-fiend lizardman/werewolf aristocrat." kinda games, though we'd probably all jump at the chance to play in games based around any one of those character concepts.

 

[Stogoe]

I would like to excise the word 'bloat' from this discussion, and replace it with the word 'content'. 'Bloat' is unnecessarily negative in its connotations; as no one has this additional content (or 'material', if you feel 'content' is too positive), no one can judge whether or not it exists simply for its own sake or whether it adds value to the IP.

This. If it bothers you that other people can purchase rules supplements if they like, I don't know what I can say to change your mind.

 

[neceros]

The problem isn't that the game will bloat (and it will bloat, guaranteed), but that it drifts. From my understanding, fourth edition design state has been implemented to help with the drifting.

We don't want another Wizard power that does more damage than a power that already exists at the same level: That's drift. However, a power that does the same damage or less damage with an alternate effect is suitable. We don't want another class that steps on the Wizard's toes and does Magic better than the Wizard, but perhaps one that uses Magic in separate ways all together.

Adding more to a balanced system does not unbalance said system. Adding unbalanced items makes it unbalanced. The writers need to talk to each other, and the editors need to watch for this sort of thing.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I never really understood the idea of "bloat" myself. The variety of options and supplements available for 3E was one of the good things about it, if you ask me. The problems with 3E began with the original PHB and went from there, and many problems with the edition were at least given a passable fix by later supplements.

I am interested in 4E because it is looking to have better core mechanics, not because of any desire to get away from "bloat".

Besides, if "bloat" were really a bad thing the best way it could be at least partially solved would be to not have any kind of 4E GSL, and it is quite obvious how unpopular that idea is on these forums. The truth is that people like buying supplements and having options available to them and are willing to pay money for such things. Unless supplements become unprofitable, gaming companies will keep making them.

 

[Spatula]

I've been really excited about 4e... and EnWorld has been my only source of information about it. One of the things that made 3.5 start to bog down after a while (to me at least) was the insane variety of classes, prestige classes, and races available to players.

It seems like people are clamoring for such and such race and new power sources with 4 more classes. How many classes do we actually need?

As many as people will buy. The class/power/feat/path bloat is WotC's sales plan (as it was in 3e) so I'm not sure why you expected anything different. Or what you expected WotC to publish after the core books.

You don't have to buy or use the splatbooks. Though they seem to be trying to make this somewhat harder with splitting what were "core" classes across multiple PHBs.

 

[interwyrm]

The problem isn't that the game will bloat (and it will bloat, guaranteed), but that it drifts. From my understanding, fourth edition design state has been implemented to help with the drifting.
(etc.)

This actually goes a long way to assuaging my doubts. I'm not entirely content, but... that was a good point.

 

[Rabbitbait]

If you dont want more classes and such just don't buy the expansion books and only play your games out of the PHB

What this guy said!

The amount of books I've bought for Od&D, A&D, 2nd Edition, 3E, and 3.5E that I have never actually used is kinda scarey. I reckon I've spent thousands.

From now on its the 3 core rulebooks and adventures only.

If one of my players wants to buy something extra I'll be more than happy for them to use it though.

This seems kinda like a New Years Editions resolution. I wonder if I'll keep it.