Blog: Paladin vs. Cleric, fight!

[Greg K]

What I want from the paladin

1. Detect supernatural evil in the following: people (e.g, evil priests, possession by evil spirits), outsiders (demons, devils, etc.), intelligent undead, and locations: I would prefer this being a bonus to a skill check rather than automatic. Maybe have various DC based upon how strong the aura of evil is.

2. Augury (Visions from God. Example: Joan of Arc having visions from god)
3. Channel Charisma bonus to strength (example: Galahad claiming that his faith improved his strength). This provides a temporary bonus to strength for damage, strength rolls, to hit (if based on strength), etc.
4. Lay Hands (example: Lancelot healing in some stories)
5. Smite supernatural evil (see detect evil for types of creatures)
6. Divine Grace: Charisma bonus to saves (but I think clerics should get this as well)
7. Turn Undead (should also be available to Good people with strong faith)
8. Must be lawful good
9. No actual spells. Look at the various stories of Lancelot, Galahad, Percival, and Bors for abilities.

Cavalier would be either a) a separate class (non divine gifted knight) or b) a theme that could be applied to the fighter and paladin.

Mounts would be an option and not built into the class as mandatory

There would be a separate Holy Warrior Class that could be customized to individual deities.

 

[Andor]

You know what I think when I think Paladin? The questing knight.

In Arcana Unearthed Monte had a class that was empowered by their devotion to a goal. And once they completed it, they lost their class powers until they found a new one.

That's going too far, but I think there is some goodness in that concept.

So I'd like to see the Paladin as a Knightly type. He's got the skills, the heavy armour and martial weapons. He's got some access to the martial action system. He might have minor devotional powers. But when he swears himself to a quest, that's when the good stuff happens. Mess with the Paladin personally and that's one thing, seek to bar him from the object of his quest and that's when he gets that holy fire gleaming in his eye, that's when fate guides his hand and honor shields his soul. That is when he is truely a Paladin.

 

[SkidAce]

So... all the time?

Nope.

 

[Leatherhead]

Paladins and roleplaying their code is only a problem if the GM and the player have different ideas of morality.

You forgot to specify "in-game morality", as opposed to "personal morality".

Roleplaying the code is only a problem when people don't realize they are roleplaying. Too many people try to inject their personal views into their character or setting.

 

[triqui]

I'm surprised they didn't run a poll on whether Paladins should cast spells. It's always been my opinion that Paladins and Rangers work better as melee characters with a few supernatural abilities rather than all-out spellcasters.

Me too. But as they are reserving Vancian for wizards and clerics, there's a good chance that rangers and Palas have a different stuff

 

[GX.Sigma]

Can we please have the Paladin be a crusading champion of virtue without using alignment mechanics?

 

[Sunseeker]

Can we please have the Paladin be a crusading champion of virtue without using alignment mechanics?

I kinda like Bob's idea of renaming it "Crusader", because really you can be a Crusader of just about any cause, good, evil, law, chaos, little mix of all of them above. Though I would prefer it remain it's own class with it's own features, which could be entirely alignment neutral or play off "opposite to your alignment". It'd be interesting to have pally-powers that got better when you used them on an adverse alignment, but were still useful on any target.

 

[Zaukrie]

Agreed with a few of you, I want a crusader, tied to a goal or god or power...not another cleric with different powers. That's what themes and choices are for.

Monte was so creative in his Arcana Unearthed, I want some of that....Paladin as it has been has always been a cleric with levels in fighter, or a fighter with levels in cleric. Boring.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm all for Paladins of any alignment, yes the name Crusader could be used, but everyone is expecting a Paladin, and it would be a waste to have 9 different classes that's sort of the same thing but "serve" different alignments. Therefore they should just have one class named Paladin as the umbrella for all of them, and different sets of abilities (and maybe a 'subclass' name/title) for each alignment, like bonuses against fear effects for LG, bonuses against charm/domination effects for CG, bonuses when sacrificing the innocent for CE, and so on.

As for one way to distinguish the Cleric from the Paladin, make sure the Cleric doesn't get Plate Mail proficiency. I never liked the fact that they did. But I've always been of the opinion that Clerics should definitely be far more magical than the Paladin. But I never really liked the fact that some classes got 9 levels of spells while others only got 6 or 4 levels either. So I want Paladins to get 9 levels of spells/powers like Clerics, just a very different more weapon-oriented bunch, that may overlap with fighters.

 

[kevtar]

I would just like to say "Thank you Monte" for a well constructed poll. Easy to follow, easy to use, immediate results. Nice.