Bob Worldbuilder debunks the Daggerheart license “scandal”

[darjr]

I'm unclear what you're disagreeing with? You believe that open licenses are the norm? I mean, they're not. Saying that you believe open licenses should be the norm does not contradict anything I said.

If you look at the majority of licensed properties -- Star Wars, Middle Earth, Star Trek, the other thousand or so licensed TTRPGs out there -- there's nary an open license in sight. Most licenses are temporary and distinctly non-open. And outside our little niche hobby, open licenses are even rarer.

We were pretty lucky to get the OGL. That's not the normal way companies license their IP.

Those properties are the exception and are for IP not rules. Rules are secondary to them.

And I’m also talking about specifically SRDs and rule content. You can broaden the argument to licenses in general but then we are not talking about the same thing anymore.

 

[overgeeked]

It's not just that.

There is something off about this license. It is probably one of the best selling core books ever in the time it's been available, probably only bested by the 2024 and 2014 PHB. Think about that. And then realize there is a desert of 3pp announcements or third party projects. Shadowdark, a very successful RPG in itself, with probably a fraction of it's sales, has dwarfed it in 3pp content.

What ever you may think about the license that right there is odd. I think it's due to that very license.

Let’s no gloss over the Kickstarter lead-in time. Kelsey was up front about the license and it’s in plain English. No real need for a lawyer. CR was not up front about the license, only revealed it after the launch, I believe, and it’s in legalese. So you definitely should talk to a lawyer before using it.

And, as mentioned above, it’s orders of magnitude easier to bust out Shadowdark 3PP that looks the part than it is to do the same for Daggerheart.

So in one case you have a very easy to understand license, lots of lead-in time, and simple OSR-style art and layout expectations. In the other you have a hard to understand license, effectively zero lead-in time, and intricate/flashy/expensive/time consuming art and layout expectations.

Regardless of what’s actually in the respective licenses, those factors shouldn’t be ignored.

 

[Morrus]

Those properties are the exception and are for IP not rules. Rules are secondary to them.

And I’m also talking about specifically SRDs and rule content. You can broaden the argument to licenses in general but then we are not talking about the same thing anymore.

I mean yes, most SRDs are under an open license because an SRD is a component of an open license. That's like saying most engines are in vehicles. The very term SRD was created for the OGL. That's rather putting the cart before the horse.

But I was talking about licenses in general, and how lucky we are in this industry. Because this is not the norm.

 

[mamba]

It also really doesn't hurt that a lot of the SD 3pp content can be knocked out in a day or two.

yes, that is why I said if you ignore size... SD does have a few larger ones too though, like

Unnatural Selection - Standard Edition - PDF - Dungeon Damsel

Unnatural Selection is a 3rd-party supplement for use with Shadowdark RPG. It introduces over 120 pages of new classes, ancestries, weapons, spells, untamed beasts, underworld oddities, magic items, adventures and more. All prices in USD.

dungeondamsel.com

On a related note, how long would it take to create a DH class?

 

[SteveC]

And, as mentioned above, it’s orders of magnitude easier to bust out Shadowdark 3PP that looks the part than it is to do the same for Daggerheart.

One thing not everyone may know is that Kelsey has made the files for layout in the Shadowdark style available for download in Affinity Publisher style. So you can make content that looks identical to the "real thing." I found that amazing.

A lot of people who make small-press RPGs are terrible at layout, and this makes it so easy for them to get started. Daggerheart looks fantastic, but it would be really challenging for a small company to make something that looks like that. I am not a fan of Shadowdark as a game, but as a part of the hobby, I find it fantastic!

 

[Scribe]

I am not a fan of Shadowdark as a game

 

[SteveC]

For what it's worth, I own it, and have recommended it to a ton of people who like 5E-esque play but find 5E too dense. And I really mean that it's one of the best things to happen to the hobby/industry in a long time.

And I'd also gladly play it as a one-off of Con game.

 

[darjr]

Let’s no gloss over the Kickstarter lead-in time. Kelsey was up front about the license and it’s in plain English. No real need for a lawyer. CR was not up front about the license, only revealed it after the launch, I believe, and it’s in legalese. So you definitely should talk to a lawyer before using it.

And, as mentioned above, it’s orders of magnitude easier to bust out Shadowdark 3PP that looks the part than it is to do the same for Daggerheart.

So in one case you have a very easy to understand license, lots of lead-in time, and simple OSR-style art and layout expectations. In the other you have a hard to understand license, effectively zero lead-in time, and intricate/flashy/expensive/time consuming art and layout expectations.

Regardless of what’s actually in the respective licenses, those factors shouldn’t be ignored.

Daggerheart had a huge play test lead in time.

 

[darjr]

For what it's worth, I own it, and have recommended it to a ton of people who like 5E-esque play but find 5E too dense. And I really mean that it's one of the best things to happen to the hobby/industry in a long time.

And I'd also gladly play it as a one-off of Con game.

Yea. The game is amazing and people love it. I intend to run it a lot. I’m not digging the game.

 

[overgeeked]

Daggerheart had a huge play test lead in time.

Absolutely. But they didn't know what the license would be so no idea if they would or should sink development time into it. Plus all the time and money for the art.