Book of Exalted Deeds: A fundamental design philosophy shift at WotC?

[Psion]

By contrast, a feat like Nymph's Kiss rewards you after you've "paid the cost" by taking unusual and somewhat difficult actions. You get something really cool, but not until you've done something to deserve it. The approach works the same way as treasure -- you don't get the treasure before you go into the dungeon, you get it after you've kicked the dragon's butt.

It just so happens I was thinking about the concept of feats (or other mechanical boons) as rewards. The catch here is that none of these feats are particularly compensated for. If there was a "rewards system" associated with them that replaced standard rewards like treature, then I could see it working. But as it stands, if the PCs beat complete the task, they get the treasure from the creature they saved the nymph from and the reward from the nymph.

In short, if you are going to make feats be boons above and beyond normal feats, perhaps you sould give is an associated "reward value" that the GM can deduct from the treasure value granted if you expect the assumptions on power level in the campaign to hold.*

* - As a side note, my games frequently deviate from the rewards/power curve assumed, but I think that as a baseline, you should give the GM the tools that follow the assumed power baseline in the book.

 

[Psiblade]

I definitely agree that Nymph's kiss is overpowered along with the Celestial Mystic. I will not give out mechanical advantages for RP disadvantages. I also remember the UA Cavalier-Paladin. I however did like a lot of the other feats and prestige classes.


-Psiblade

 

[Victim]

True, but I'm not sure that's what's happening here.

The problem with the older mechanics is that they're "give me a hamburger today and I will gladly pay you Tuesday" rules. You get neat benefits now for promising to engage in possibly inconvenient behavior later. There are players for whom that approach works fine, but there are also players who will either be unable to fulfill that promise or will do so at inappropriate times in the game.

By contrast, a feat like Nymph's Kiss rewards you after you've "paid the cost" by taking unusual and somewhat difficult actions. You get something really cool, but not until you've done something to deserve it. The approach works the same way as treasure -- you don't get the treasure before you go into the dungeon, you get it after you've kicked the dragon's butt.

cheers,

Since when is writing a unusual background to justify twinking a difficult action? And having a powerful fey friend seems to a better deal than say having a ordinary spouse. If we're talking about potential kidnappings and the like, then consider a Nymph or other fey creature versus a human commoner.

The problem with Vow of Poverty seems to be that it sets up a bonus progression that doesn't take into account the magic item progression. At level 20, things probably work out roughly equal. However, a character gains most of his magic item wealth over the later levels of his career. At lower levels, characters aren't nearly so dependent on fancy equipment. So, if at level 20, you have the magic item character gaining more power than the Poverty character and they end up balanced, then the Vow of Poverty is going to be too powerful at low levels when characters aren't getting lots of stuff.

 

[shadow]

Yes! Yes! Yes! Munckinism at its finest! Give me more! Long live power gaming!

 

[Davelozzi]

The problem with Vow of Poverty...

IMO, the problem of Vow of Poverty is that it takes something that is supposed to be a sacrifice and turns it into "free goodies." Talk about missing the point.

 

[Staffan]

Since when is writing a unusual background to justify twinking a difficult action? And having a powerful fey friend seems to a better deal than say having a ordinary spouse. If we're talking about potential kidnappings and the like, then consider a Nymph or other fey creature versus a human commoner.

I don't have the book, but I would never let someone just write a background to justify powerful stuff. If they want powerful stuff that's balanced by background deeds, they'll have to actually perform those deeds in-game.

 

[Simplicity]

Exalted feats are not normal feats. They're essentially prestige feats that
you only get in certain situations (for example, by taking a vow of poverty, taking an exalted prestige class, etc.). Paladins don't get to go pick exalted
feats every 3 levels.

So yes, they're SUPPOSED to be more powerful.

As for whether Vow of Poverty is overpowered, I don't think it is (except
in the case of the monk... No DM should ever let a monk take this
Vow.)

 

[mearls]

What I find interesting about Nymph's Kiss is that it gives you a major gameplay reward for forfilling a goal that can only be accomplished through roleplaying. That's a very interesting carrot to dangle in front of a player who focuses on tactics and character improvement.

Hi Chris,

I haven't read Nymph's Kiss, and I don't own the BoED, so I can't comment on the speciifcs of the feat. What I can comment on is the idea of giving a game mechanic benefits a roleplaying drawback. This is a bad idea for a number of reasons, some of which pertain to D&D, others that cut to the form of RPGs as games.

A reward based on RP undermines one of the important bits of a good RPG: in theory, everyone has the same opportunity for screen time. In D&D, the rogue checks for traps and sneak attacks monsters, the cleric turns undead, the fighter wallops the giant with his sword, and so on. Feats that give more *oomph* based on RP cut both ways: not only do they give a character an inordinate amount of power, allowing him to outshine the rest of the party, but the manner in which a PC wins them makes them more likely to fall into the hands of outgoing, active, and domineering players who already have a major share of the limelight. This process widens the divide between players *unless it has a corresponding mechanical balance.*

IME, it's a waste of time to try and get a player to change his style. People play games to have fun, not to become some sort of uber-gamer. You can't make people roleplay their characters. Giving them mechanical rewards to do so just changes the game from "I picked Power Attack to kick butt" to "I say 'thee' and 'thou' a lot to get extra XPs." If the player is already happy with Power Attack, why change the game? Furthermore, why change the game in such a way that spouting thee's and thou's is a patently superior way to gain power? Is there some sort of holy writ that theatrics and The Great God Story* are all that matter in RPGs?

(*My long standing claim is that in RPG design, story is worthless. As part of a DM's preparation, perhaps, but not as part of a designer's work. RPGs are like football in that a game might produce a cool story you tell your friends, but the game isn't designed to produce stories.)

 

[spacecrime.com]

Folks, all I'm trying to say is that if the mondo-powered feat requires getting smoochies from a nymph, then it seems fairly obvious that if you want the feat, you have to

a) find a nymph, and
b) persuade her to give you smoochies.

That's not a "drawback". It's not an attempt to force roleplaying. It's a quest, one that just happens to be difficult to complete just by killing something until it's dead.

I don't know if you've heard the news yet, but it is possible to be rewarded for achieving a play objective without killing something. There might even be something about it somewhere in the D&D rules.

sheesh,

 

[MerricB]

OTOH, we now know why BoED has a "Mature" sticker on it: you have to be mature enough not to abuse the power within.

(Actually, I think the Mature sticker is fully warranted by the discussion of what "good" is in the D&D world.)

Cheers!