[Book of exalted deeds] Vow of Peace

[Herremann the Wise]

Psionicist,

I suppose what I was trying to do was to point out the Spirit of the Feat, not just the letter of the law. Think about what type of person would have such an aversion to violence. This is not just a guy who won't hit people, it is someone who has an almost phobic response to violence. It seems such an extreme and challenging character to roleplay. Such a character won't be trying to walk a fine line in regards to what involvement with violence he can and cannot have. He will be almost apoplectic in his manic state to avoid it.

I disagree with Hypersmurf that Bless is fine as this could be used to assist his friends in their violent ways. He would more likely use Protections to prevent damage rather than spells that encourage it. Strength and Dex Buffs that assist the characters in their violence are definite no-no's.

The other thing to remember is that these are Exalted Feats. This means that the character can't just be good, he must be Exalted in nature. For such people, the ends never justify the means...ever. As such, assisting others in being violent seems certainly against the spirit of the law, if not the letter. It is why I would have to agree with your DM in terms of such a character being almost unplayable in a violent adventuring group. His reasoning for staying with the group would have to be extreme - ordered by his God etc.

Again, just my opinion.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hypersmurf]

I suppose what I was trying to do was to point out the Spirit of the Feat, not just the letter of the law.

I disagree with Hypersmurf that Bless is fine as this could be used to assist his friends in their violent ways. He would more likely use Protections to prevent damage rather than spells that encourage it. Strength and Dex Buffs that assist the characters in their violence are definite no-no's.

Whereas I have no problem admitting I'm interpreting the letter of the rules, based on the feat text Psionicist quoted.

Bless, Bull's Strength, or Cat's Grace cast upon one's allies neither incapacitate nor weaken enemies so your allies may kill them.

One could just as easily argue that casting Mage Armor (a protection to prevent damage) or Cure Serious Wounds (a healing spell) on one of your allies allows them to remain dangerous for longer, and thus inflict more damage on the enemy. Is there any difference in the "spirit" here between Cure Serious Wounds and Bless?

The letter prohibits detrimental effects upon enemies that allow your allies to kill them more easily; it does not prohibit advantageous effects upon those same allies.

-Hyp.

 

[Psionicist]

I think I agree with Hypersmurf here. You are supposed to be good, not just good, but exalted good. An exalted good character shouldn't force his friends into his beliefs. Or?

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hypersmurf,
Again, while Bless assists your friends, it primarily assists them in being violent - making their attacks more likely to cause damage. Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace are similar. A curing spell is a reversal of the effect of violence - well within the character's nature. The fact that this may be viewed as extending this friends time with which to be violent is moot. This is where the ends and means arguement comes in. He is just trying to heal people, what they do with it is beyond his control. Quite different from a Bless where it could be viewed as an encouragement to violence - it's primary use is to aid in attacking. Similarly, Mage Armor is more an attempt to prevent the effects of violence. A true pacifist however would prefer to halt the act of violence more so than its effect. However, minimising its effect would also be part of the agenda.

Psionicist and Hypersmurf and the BoED,
Unfortunately, most people have just looked at the crunchy section of the book. It must be remembered that the use of these feats etc. is predicated on the character being exalted and all that entails:
- Helping Others
- Charity
- Healing
- Personal Sacrifice
- Worshipping Good Dieties
- Casting Good Spells
- Mercy
- Forgiveness
- Bringing Hope
- Redeeming Evil

Chapter One should be read before going straight to chapter four. At least this is what the authour intended. You guys are free of course to do what pleases.

Psionicist,
What actually is the story behind your character? It sounds like he has earnt his stuff as far as the Vow of Non-Violence is concerned. However, to take the step or should I say leap further and take the Vow of Peace is as described bordering on the fanatical. Does your character behave in this way?
As far as forcing your friends into your beliefs, of course you will. Or should I say, you will try to guide them to a more pacific path. You will of course allow them free will to decide but you will at least set the example for them. Of course you will do nothing to encourage them to be violent either. If this is not your role here then what is your character's motivation for adventuring with them?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hypersmurf]

Again, while Bless assists your friends, it primarily assists them in being violent - making their attacks more likely to cause damage. Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace are similar. A curing spell is a reversal of the effect of violence - well within the character's nature. The fact that this may be viewed as extending this friends time with which to be violent is moot. This is where the ends and means arguement comes in. He is just trying to heal people, what they do with it is beyond his control. Quite different from a Bless where it could be viewed as an encouragement to violence - it's primary use is to aid in attacking. Similarly, Mage Armor is more an attempt to prevent the effects of violence. A true pacifist however would prefer to halt the act of violence more so than its effect. However, minimising its effect would also be part of the agenda.

And yet Cat's Grace increases AC - just like Mage Armor. Bless increases saving throws against fear.

If he's trying to increase his allies' AC, which has a side effect of increasing their ranged attack rolls, is he at fault? Surely what they do with it is up to them...?

-Hyp.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hypersmurf,

...and so it depends. If the Cat's Grace was used primarily to assist someone escape or avoid violence then sure, if it was to allow the archer to better plug some creature, then the request would be denied with a frowned face. Just because he's good does not mean he's stupid about it. There will be occasions that such spells could be used. However, the intention behind the wanting of such things is normally obvious. As for bless, it makes the character slightly more courageous which normally means that they see conflict as a less risky option than perhaps they should - at least in the eyes of the pacifist. Isn't running away in fear avoiding violence anyway?

I suppose I'm just trying to highlight the difference between spells that protect creatures versus ones that directly or indirectly assist in seeing violence as a course of valid action - a path the true pacifist will never walk down. Again I highlight the difference between a character who has taken the Vow of Non-Violence and the one who has also taken on the Vow of Peace. The Vow of Peace truly borders upon the fanatical and so in my opinion, is more an option for NPCs rather than PCs.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hypersmurf]

As for bless, it makes the character slightly more courageous which normally means that they see conflict as a less risky option than perhaps they should - at least in the eyes of the pacifist. Isn't running away in fear avoiding violence anyway?

There are more effects to fear than simply running away, of course.

If they gain the cowering condition, then they simply stand there frozen and get butchered. Alternatively, if they do flee, then they incur an AoO with no Dex bonus - the opposite of "minimising the effects of violence".

By not casting Bless, in this case, the character has contributed to the cause of violence more than if he had cast Bless.

-Hyp.

 

[Psionicist]

Hypersmurf,
Again, while Bless assists your friends, it primarily assists them in being violent - making their attacks more likely to cause damage. Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace are similar. A curing spell is a reversal of the effect of violence - well within the character's nature. The fact that this may be viewed as extending this friends time with which to be violent is moot. This is where the ends and means arguement comes in. He is just trying to heal people, what they do with it is beyond his control. Quite different from a Bless where it could be viewed as an encouragement to violence - it's primary use is to aid in attacking. Similarly, Mage Armor is more an attempt to prevent the effects of violence. A true pacifist however would prefer to halt the act of violence more so than its effect. However, minimising its effect would also be part of the agenda.

Psionicist and Hypersmurf and the BoED,
Unfortunately, most people have just looked at the crunchy section of the book. It must be remembered that the use of these feats etc. is predicated on the character being exalted and all that entails:
- Helping Others
- Charity
- Healing
- Personal Sacrifice
- Worshipping Good Dieties
- Casting Good Spells
- Mercy
- Forgiveness
- Bringing Hope
- Redeeming Evil

Chapter One should be read before going straight to chapter four. At least this is what the authour intended. You guys are free of course to do what pleases.

Psionicist,
What actually is the story behind your character? It sounds like he has earnt his stuff as far as the Vow of Non-Violence is concerned. However, to take the step or should I say leap further and take the Vow of Peace is as described bordering on the fanatical. Does your character behave in this way?
As far as forcing your friends into your beliefs, of course you will. Or should I say, you will try to guide them to a more pacific path. You will of course allow them free will to decide but you will at least set the example for them. Of course you will do nothing to encourage them to be violent either. If this is not your role here then what is your character's motivation for adventuring with them?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Hello,

This is actually the case, I have read everything in the book except for the rules stuff. I have played this character for a couple of months and now my DM wants me to design this character "technically" too, not just role-play him. Honestly, I don't even know the technical benefits of the Vow-feats, but it fits the character's personality, or so I believed when I wrote the first post in this thread.

The story of the character is quite complex but in brief, he is very sick to the point he knows he will die soon and has accepted it. He is apathetic to himself and his personal health and only cares about the welfare and happiness of others. He often sacrifices himself for his allies and/or mostly everyone who crosses his path (healing/buffing/singing a few words of creation/opening the trapped door/casting good spells/giving charity etc. etc.). Although he is truly good and has a beautiful soul, he possesses as small belief that he is not sufficient (think achievement anxiety/fear of failure).
He is also a really good diplomat but somewhat ashamed of it, a part of him doesn’t like to tamper with another beings free will but another likes the idea of means by not using force. By rhetorical speeches and diplomatic skills he accidentally turned two bugbears against each other, he had no idea it would lead to their death. From that point forward he is very cautious when dealing with other cultures. Fortunately his bardic knowledge can tell him when he should and when he should not promise savage species things they won’t understand or might take to literarily.

I have talked to my DM and he think I should take a level of two of the Apostle of Peace prestige class, with a prereq. of Vow of Peace, so our problem is basically solved. ... Except for the true meaning of exalted good, which is both more fun to discuss than rules and a million times more rewarding to role-play!