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Book of Immortals

Crothian

First Post
Before light, before shadow, before darkness, before earth and sky and sea, there existed many beings. These beings made all that is, all that was and all that may ever be. They forged the realms of existence: the planes, the seas, the gods – everything. None know their names, though all people tell stories of them and their creations. Even the gods cannot speak truth about their nature. These beings, whatever they are, set the stage for all that would come.

Within the realms of existence, one finds three states of being: gods, mortals and beings who stand somewhere between the two. These latter beings, called Immortals, wield powers far beyond what mortals can hope to wield. They can call up armies of spirits, spark the sky into a raging blaze or shatter the earth with a single blow from their mighty hands. Great as their powers are though, they cannot match the gods’ might.

Gods and Immortals wield incredible, world-shaking powers, manipulate the fate of nations and visit ruin upon those who oppose them. They may have worshippers, temples, nations and even entire worlds singing their praises. Most are as fickle as cats and seemingly indifferent to the damage done to lesser beings in their titanic struggles with cosmic forces.

But where does that leave the common man? A mere puppet to be toyed with; a pawn to be used in the endless games of the gods? For those brave enough to take on the seemingly impossible there is hope, for mortals can become Immortals. They can take up arms against the gods themselves, shaping destiny to suit their personal whims. Their powers can shelter nations, strike down mountain ranges and shatter the barriers between worlds.

The greatest challenge awaits you. Do you dare to take up the reins of power? Do you dare to challenge the forces of the universe, to take your place among the stars?

Do you dare to become an Immortal?

In The Book of Immortals, we turn our attention to the fascinating adventures that take place when characters begin to transcend the limitations placed upon mortals. They begin to deal with the gods as equals or at least as individuals with enough power to change the world in their own right. They deal directly with good and evil, law and chaos, in its primal forms. They make bargains with celestial beings, play devils off against one another and may even develop a cult dedicated to their eventual deification.

The rules presented in this book provide players and Games Masters with a structure with which they can represent these heady levels of accomplishment. They run parallel to the standard epic d20 rules, allowing the characters to use both systems simultaneously or for parties to split; some becoming epic characters while others develop themselves along the Path of Immortality.
 

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Yair

Community Supporter
The Book of Immortals distinguishes between ‘Epic’ games that involve high-level characters and high power, and ‘epic’ games that involve fundamental questions about good and evil, the use of power, or so on, and address how events change the world for good or ill. The goal of the book, as I understand it, is to aid in constructing a ‘hybrid’ game - adding the lacking ‘epic’ elements through immortals.
The book presents an entirely different method of character advancement, the Immortal Path that culminates in transcendence and apotheosis. By completing certain Challenges characters along this path can align themselves with ‘epic’ sources of power such as Nature, or Mythic Good. This grants them immortal Aura, Gifts such as god-worthy weapons or eternal youth, and a myriad of other powers. It also burdens them, however, with obligations and limitations no mortal need bear. Apotheosis itself is not described, but all the stages along the path from mortal to true Immortal are detailed along with various sources and places of mythic power, relationships with them, and the powers they bring.

The immortal path lies completely aside from the normal, character level driven, progression. That is my main complaint: although progressing along the path to immortality grants you powers, this is not reflected in your character level, in level adjustment, in templates, or in any of the other tools 3e provides. The aspirant does not gain XP during an attempt to complete a challenge, but the benefits gained have little to do with the lost XP. Furthermore, once enough challenges are met the aspirant may attempt a Great Challenge to progress to the next stage of apotheosis. Should he fail, he will be stripped of all his immortal powers and become a mortal. It also seems to me the power difference between two characters in the same stage along the path can be substantial. I am afraid a DM will find it very difficult to maintain balance with a group containing immortal characters.
Challenges are difficult. The author says the minimal level to attempt the easier ones is 14, except a few that can be attempted as low as 6. From my reading it seems the bulk of the challenges are fitted around early Epic or teen-level characters, and taper off by the 30s or so. The book provides a wide assortment of challenges, each an outline of checks and roll DCs with advice on how to fit it to your game. I was impressed with how the author managed to separate the mechanics from the flavor, and explain how the same basic mechanics can apply to several tests falling under the same “archetype”. Examples are given.
I found it ironic that the book offers only a few sample paths to immortality (6). My old Wrath of the Immortals boxed set had five paths for the five granting powers (IIRC), the BoI allows for numerous granting powers and even allows to combine them so it is only natural that not all paths can be presented, but somehow I found the number of example paths lacking.

To even reach a challenge the character needs to tap a source of power through a wellspring or by a covenant.
A character may locate a Wellspring of a mythic primeval power, such as the Library of the Last Truth, staffed by animals and containing all the knowledge in the universe, or The Hanging Tree on which the villagers of the long-lost village of Torluin once hang 40 innocents and in so doing cursed the land, and tree, with their bile. The BoI describes about 16 sources of power, from Mythic Law to Elemental Earth or Abstract Love. Each is given several example wellsprings that allow tapping it, and rules to construct others. A detailed list of Blessings and Banes the power grants according to the number of completed challenges related to it is also provided, as well as a substantial description of the power and what it is like to be an immortal tapping it.
I found many of the wellsprings to be fascinating places, and even if some are lackluster the idea just ooze adventure potential and ‘epic’ goodness. Due to their importance to immortals, however, the DM should consider carefully how to integrate such places into his campaign. I did not find the book adequately clarified to how is it that these powerful places are largely left alone by immortals and mortals alike, if one to were to follow the world the rules imply I fear these beautiful places would be crammed with competing and scheming immortals.
The banes and blessings add a tremendous amount of flavor as the immortal gains unique powers but also severe limitations. For example, an Avatar of Knowledge (9 completed challenges in the service of Abstract Knowledge) can cast divination or legend lore once per day per Int bonus, has +9 to all knowledge skills and all are class skills for him, and may take 20 on a knowledge (or bardic knowledge) check once per day. However, he always acts last in a round, and all NPCs feel him undermining their free will, so the immortal doesn’t add a Cha bonus and subtracts his Int bonus for such social interactions and they are hostile towards him. I found that typically some of the banes or blessings will be mediocre, others great, and others be great ideas that need better mechanics - but overall this mechanic adds a lot of color and flavor to the character. They seem to vary widely in power, however.

Instead of seeking out a wellspring, you can form a Covenant with a god or a mythic entity such as Animals, a certain Nation, or the Moon to gain challenges. About 5 mythic entities are presented, as well as all the PH domains (as covenants with deities granting them). Each described covenant source gets an ordered list of duties related to the amount of challenges overcome in the course of the covenant, and of course a description of the nature of its source. For example, after completing 3 challenges as part of a covenant with The Green (plants), you have taken a Bond to “Foster the Green”, a Commitment to be an “Adversary to the Common Man” (farmers), and must make a seasonal Offering of blood. All the roles and duties possible within a covenant (commitment, blood offering, and so on) are extensively detailed, though I must confess I’m still a little vague on what precisely some things mean. I must be dense.
Since the powers behind the covenant are interactive (gods, mythic wolf spirits, and so on) I see covenants as providing an excellent source of roleplaying.
Covenants tend to several limit the character in terms of taking up time and resources for annual rituals, obligating them to certain courses of action, and even to answering the call of anyone that meets certain criteria (at 7 completed challenges for the green, for example, the character must be at the beck and call of level 8+ druids).

Whether through covenants or wellsprings an immortal character enjoys greater power than an equal-level character, but is also more limited. I really liked the flavor implications, the immortals are imbued with by the great supernatural powers but as they assume their powers they also assume their natures and responsibilities. None of this, however, lowers their power or makes balancing them with non-immortal characters any easier.

With each new challenge overcome the immortal gains more power. Aside from the fairly weak blessings, the true power lies in Gifts: with each overcome challenge the immortal character gains a Gift, and his Aura increases. There are several types of gifts.
Artefacts are gifts in material form, essentially artifacts. They have a fairly reach flavor and complex mechanics govern their power, but ultimately they are uber magic items. They are perhaps better alternatives to represent items such as Thor’s hammer or Moradin’s axe.
Attributes are much like feats, offering a fairly wide array of benefits such as becoming mostly undead, eternal youth, increased strength, +5’ to movement, and so on.
Numen are servitors, they may serve varied roles from the general of the immortal’s armies to lowly servants.
Powers are gifts that allow direct mastery over Fire, Evil or so on. Each is a complex ability with multiple options, but generally they allow the immortal to wield direct power under their spheres of influence.
The gifts are very varied, so it is hard to assess them. I found most to be too complex for me to properly digest mechanically. They are absolutely needed as they form the backbone of the immortal’s power, and their great variety and customization allows for many varied characters.

I have so far avoided talking about aura. That is because it is too complex. Basically, the immortal’s aura increases with the amount of challenges he makes, but jumps whenever he completes a great challenge. It produces fear or owe in those near him, but its principal role is to serve as a point pool for all the other powers. By infusing his aura into his gifts (and a few other things) the immortal can greatly enhance them. In this way the immortal’s statistics are dynamic, he can change them by focusing his aura differently.
I found this to be a most complex and potentially frustrating mechanic, but I’m sure many players would love to min/max and tinker with their options.
The infusion of aura is done through two new skills, Channel and Infuse, which are class skills for immortals (i.e. they can gain ranks in them when they increase their character level). This only adds a layer of complexity to an already complex issue, and I honestly don’t know what the end result looks like in practice.

Conclusion
I never played using the BoI, so I don’t know how it works in practice. But the sheer complexity of the rules, with their myriad aura-infusing options and interconnections, makes me leery of attempting to. I found the ideas intriguing, but the rules too complex and completely unbalanced. I am also timid of allowing hordes of rampaging immortals to act in my campaign; if I will use this product, it will be in moderation, and there will be no “immortal society” to speak of.
This book set out to add ‘epic’ to Epic. The many excellent ideas such as the wellsprings, covenants, and immortals shackled by the very source of their power certainly do put the ‘epic’ in the game, but for my money all this doesn’t make up for the overly-complex rules (for my taste), or the utter lack of regard for game balance.
The book also needlessly railroads. For example, “The Immortal who owns the artefact or his knowing agents cannot harm the artefact without instantly killing the Immortal.” The author obviously didn’t want the owner to harm the artefact (and hence retrieve his Aura points) at will, and so makes sure he won’t using the ultimate punishment. That’s railroading. This is just an example, this kind of approach permeates the text. Bad form.
I decided to give it 3 out of 5 stars – I found it inspiring and think it can serve well in some campaigns and groups, but I don’t consider it a good product.

Another Note: I purchased the BoI as a pdf, and I am truly frustrated by the lack of bookmarks. This is a big (258 page) pdf, and navigating it without bookmarks can be very annoying.
The final nail in the coffin for me was it’s OGC declaration,
”OGC Declaration” said:
All text paragraphs and tables containing game mechanics and statistics derivative of Open Game Content and the System Reference Document are considered to be Open Game Content. All other significant characters, names, places, items, art and text herein are copyrighted by Mongoose Publishing. All rights reserved.
I intended to use it in an Open Game Content only campaign, and this declaration pretty much nullified that possibility. I truly despise vague OGC declarations.
 

skalvar

First Post
Good thoughts, all.

You are correct: the system was designed from the ground up to be a complicated, baroque game played by min/maxers. As a game it takes the idea of "off table character/world manipulation" and explores it. I learned a lot writing it and you will see the results in some other products coming out this year or next. :)

RE: Why wellsprings are not overwhelmed
Due to time/space constraints I cut an entire chapter (roughly 28,000 words) on Immortal politics and the Immortal political game. It answers a lot of questions (including why some of the blessings/banes seem out of balance) but I don't know if it will ever see the light of day. Maybe someday, if I can find the time to lay it out between paying gigs and changing diapers.

RE: Lack of templates
I ran the design past a fairly large number of playtesters. Each group came back with radically different interpertations of the templates/ELs/what have you based on how their characters used Aura and the Immortal skills. It got so wonky I gave up. ;-) If I had six more months to work on the book we might have come to a workable compromise.


Shannon Kalvar
 

trancejeremy

Adventurer
The Book of Immortals

"I am Immortal, I have inside me blood of kings! I have no rival, no man can be my equal!"


So, you want to be an Immortal? Well, you could try the method Master Shake suggests, and jump off a magic cliff, like they did in that movie, Highlander (which was actually a documentary and shot in real time). Or buy the "Book of Immortals" from Mongoose for d20. Just which option is less painful is hard to say.

Let me say that a as a slight disclaimer, that I really am not a fan of Mongoose products (though they have occasionally put out some gems). I had sworn off them after buying two extremely poorly edited products from them, the original OGL Conan (seemingly with 100s of editing errors) and OGL Horror (similarly poorly edited, missing chunks of key rules, and just not that great). But then I heard in a thread on a message board about how they had changed, and blah blah blah, I should give them a second chance. So I did, with the Book of Immortals, a subject I had been very interested in.


I was a very big fan of Basic Dungeons and Dragons. This was set in a place called the "Known World", which was later called "Mystara" (along with some additions like the Hollow World). It was sort of an odd fantasy world, with a fair amount of strange stuff. One of the quirks about the world was that it had no "gods" per se. But it did have "Immortals". Immortals were essentially gods, but they had once been mortals. But through their actions, generally great deeds, they achieved godhood.

There were two products with rules for these Immortals. That is, how they operated, and how PCs could become immortals. BD&D had a somewhat higher scope of play than AD&D. PCs were generally expected to become rulers of a stronghold in the Companion Boxed set (around 15th level), then planar travellers in the "Master Rules", which was I think from 24th to 36th.

In some regards, D&D 3rd edition has that higher scope of BD&D. Character in 3.x can go up to 20th level, then qualify for "Epic" levels. So, I've been hoping for a product that would let PCs become Immortals, or gods. Preferably an official one, but one from another company would also be cool. (Or so I thought).



"Fly the Moon and reach for the stars!"



Enter Mongoose's "The Book of Immortals", which at first glance would be exactly what I was looking for. From the back blurb of the book:

"Gods and Immortals wield incredible, world-shaking powers, manipulate the fate of nations and visit ruin upon those who oppose them. They may have worshippers, temples, nations and even entire worlds singing their praises. Most are as fickle as cats and seemingly indifferent to the damage done to lesser beings in their titanic struggles with cosmic forces.

But where does that leave the common man? A mere puppet to be toyed with; a pawn to be used in the endless games of the gods? For those brave enough to take on the seemingly impossible there is hope, for mortals can become Immortals. They can take up arms against the gods themselves, shaping destiny to suit their personal whims. Their powers can shelter nations, strike down mountain ranges and shatter the barriers between worlds.

The greatest challenge awaits you. Do you dare to take up the reins of power? Do you dare to challenge the forces of the universe, to take your place among the stars?

Do you dare to become an Immortal?"



While it seems to have been aiming at what I was looking for, in actual practice, it really isn't.


First off, the Mongoose sort of Immortal is actually not really a god. They are somewhere between gods and epic level characters. Closer to the epic level end, though in some cases, not even that.

Immortals in BD&D were essentially just a really powerful character class (the Immortal) and had a range of levels from 1 to 36. Immortals gained levels by gaining more "Power Points", more or less like experience points, but which were also used to fuel their powers (in fact, using too many could drop them down a level). These points ranged from 300 for a starting Immortal to 6,000 for a top of the line one.

Mongoose Immortals have just 5 "steps", Aspirant, Wielder, Illuminated, Immortal, and Transcendent. Mongoose Immortals go up a step by achieving "Victories" and overcoming a "Great Challenge". Powers are basically powered by an Immortals "Aura", which is a number which is based on the Immortal's rank and the number of "victories" they have. The "Aura" ranges from 1 to about 50.

As near as I can tell from the 3 sample Immortals, each "victory" translates into a +1 challenge rating or so. So basically, one "victory" is about on par with just another level, epic or otherwise.



"No man can understand, my power is in my own hand!"


The powers that a Mongoose Immortal gains are called "Gifts". These are further broken down into 4 areas; Artifacts, Attributes, Numen, and Powers. An Immortal's "Aura" has to be invested in these. Also, most of these require the use of one of two new skills just for Immortals, Infusion and Channel.


Artifacts are just really powerful magic items. They are built with power points. They just use normal magical abilities in the DMG for the most part. Magical weapon and armor abilities cost 1 power point per +1 of the ability. So a +5 sword artifact would cost 5 power points be +5, then you could make it flaming for another power point (as flaming costs +1) or vorpal for another 5 power points. You can also imbue them with various other abilities, these generally cost a number of power points equal to the caster level, though some types of artifacts have a better ratio than others. (For instance, rings are easier to imbue with wondrous magical abilities than weapons or armor).

Each artifact starts off with 5 power points, and the Immortal can invest more of their Aura into the artifact. The aura to power point ratio isn't fixed, it depends on a roll of the Infusion skill. It can range from 2:1 to 8:1 power points to aura.

You can create some fairly impressive items with this method. However, it's heavily skewed towards the more capable Immortals (that have a high Infusion skill), and even then they have to spend a good chunk of their Aura points.


Attributes are kind of like feats or powers. They actually range from being able to cast 5 levels of a certain type of spell to gaining a +1 bonus to AC and attack roles defending a certain country, to becoming a plant.

These don't seem to be balanced very well. For instance, getting a +1 attack bonus and AC while defending a certain country seems about as powerful as a standard d20 Feat. Maybe not even that.

On the other end, you can gain flight. Or eternal youth. Some attributes really suck (why would anyone want to be a plant?), some are fairly powerful. None are especially earth-shaking. (I was kinda looking for Immortals that could create planes, create species, create worlds and planets and even suns)


Numen are basically flunkies or minions or allies. Not an especially powerful one, either. An evil Immortal might get a Succubus as a flunky. Which while nice, doesn't seem terribly high powered or unusual - in fact, nothing more than you might expect a higher level character to have as a cohort or minion...


Powers are kind of shape the fabric of reality stuff, though most of the things are pretty minor, result wise. For instance, an Immortal could heal himself or a colleague. Or create weapons out of wind (or some other element).

So really, Mongoose style Immortals are not really gods or near gods or even godlings. Because it uses a system parallel to that of the level system, it's hard to quantify their power, but it seems about as much as an epic level.


Now, not all Immortals can get all powers. Sort of a catch. An Immortal apparently needs a "Wellspring" or a "Covenant". The Wellspring is like a sacred area or something, while the Covenant is a pact with someone. These also give Immortals other powers, too. But these depend on another rating. It's a bit confusing, actually.


See, this is one of those things I find a bit irksome about this book. It's complicated, and you get all these schemes to earn abilities that are outside the whole level system, which adds a lot of extra book keeping. You have to keep track of an Immortals victories, their "title", their wellsprings and covenants and the various "tap" levels of same.



" With my sword and head held high, got to pass the test first time - yeah!"

As "Challenges" are so important to an Immortal, it gets a fairly hefty chapter devoted to them, 40 pages worth.

Basically, there are 18 different types of challenges, each with a fairly detailed (page or so) example. These range from creating or destroying artifacts (the whole Lord of the Rings plot, taking a ring to be destroyed in Mt. Doom would be a pretty good example of a Challenge), to tests of Will or Faith (the Last Temptation of Christ would be an example of one of those).

Some involve combat. Some involve self-reflection, sort of. There's one I like where an Immortal has to convert someone (one picked by the Gods, apparently) to a different alignment by convincing them to change. That seems like it could be a lot of fun in practice. There's a pretty wide range of things to do.

This part of the book I liked a lot. It provides a lot of help to the DM in actually implementing the Challenge part of the rules, and to a lesser extent, is very useful for just coming up with adventures, period.

There's also some brief comments on the politics of the Immortal world. And some pre-made paths to Immortality (that is, with fixed Challenges and such). There's only 3 sample Immortals, though, 1 of whom is a real wuss.



"Bring on the girls! C'mon, c'mon, c'mon!"


It's an okay looking book. Not particularly fancy, sort of no frills-ish, but not nearly as spartan as some splat books (notably the one word line from AEG or the Legends & Lairs line from FFG) . The font used is kinda big, so while it's 256 pages, it feels a lot shorter. (Until you try to read it while in bed, then it feels a lot longer.)

While I wouldn't say the layout is bad, exactly, again, it's sort of no frills-ish, and there are lots and lots of tables and such which are scattered all over the book. It would have been nice for these to have been reprinted at the back.

I guess they have improved the editing - I didn't notice too many glaring typos (other than one almost obligatory "looses" instead of "loses".). One weird thing, though, there are constant references to "Core Rulebook I" and "Core Rulebook II", which is a d20 license requirement that was changed a couple years ago (you can now refer to the PHB, DMG, MM, etc).

The art is okay, if a bit on the amateurish side. Some pieces are well done, but most are not remarkable one way or the other. Most art does in fact reflect things in the book ( as opposed to random clip art), but in some cases pieces apparently meant to illustrate a section or rule actually appear a couple pages later.

If 1 were a fanzine done by a drunken pirate and 10 were Freeport: City of Adventure (the best looking d20 book on the market), this would be about a 3.



"People talk about you, people say that you've had your day..."

While not a terrible book, it just isn't a very good one. The first time I read it, after finishing (and waking up), I thought to myself "D'oh! I just wasted $30". Which is unfortunately true - while it's got some okay ideas, it's just something that I would never actually use. While technically the rules are probably playable, they are just a mess.

Also, the writing in the book is kinda boring. Maybe it's just the subject, sorta, I know books on philosophy tend to make me sleepy. But it was a real struggle staying awake while reading this book. (Actually, like a philosophy book, this used a lot of jargon I couldn't keep straight)

Lastly, but perhaps most importantly, it's just not what I was looking for. At most, these Immortals are only slightly more epic than epic. Which wouldn't have been bad, but it pretty much promises Immortals on par with gods, both on the back cover of the book and in the flavor text all throughout the book. So it fails at what it says it tries to do.

To be fair, the original Immortals rules for D&D were by Frank Metzner, and the revised were by Aaron Allston. Both perhaps legendary designers (if not immortal). And they were aiming at a setting which didn't have "Gods" to begin with, so they didn't have to try to position something between a "God" and a really tough dude.

I think I'll probably just try to convert those rules for what I'm after and find another home for this book. D+




(All the quotes are from the song "Princes of the Universe" by Queen. Which is from Highlander. Which is a different sort of immortal, but eh, I like the song. The whole soundtrack is good, actually. And don't try jumping off a mountain, magic or not..)
 
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JustaPlayer

First Post
I have to agree with your review of this product. Also, when I was reading it, I kept asking myself why they put the d20 logo on the book. It's about as far as one can get from d20 and still have a few recognizable bits.

Anyway, if you want good products from Mongoose, stay away from the Classic Play line as much as possible. Try the Lone Wolf stuff, that's great. Also, Conan is now much better than that first book. They ended up cleaning house on their editors. In general, it seems to me that they have the licenses which they put the manpower into and everything else in mediocre at best.
 

Crothian

First Post
I haven't seen this book in the Classic Play line, but their Book of Planes is really good. The Stronghold books of the Classic Play line is also very good. So, don't discount the whole line of books there are some good ones in there. Mongoose is hit and miss along most of their lines.
 

Yair

Community Supporter
... and, with all humility, perhaps reading reviews prior to purchasing the book would aid in avoiding bad choices :heh:
- Yair, who wrote the previous review
 


trancejeremy

Adventurer
Yeah, now that I look at my receipt, I ordered the Book of Immortals in late Febuary and your review was up in what, late March? (I could have sworn at one time it mentioned when a review was submitted)...
 


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