Book of Roguish Luck...anyone got it yet?
- Thread starter DungeonmasterCal
- Start date
Berandor
lunatic
Sure. I'll post the examples from my review, if you don't mind.philreed said:
For example, the Bandit gains the special ability "Eye Strike". With a critical hit, she can blind his opponent. Sounds nifty, right? Until we get to the mechanics:
The Bandit rolls a possible critical hit. Choosing to use eye strike, instead of a confirmation roll she makes another attack roll (or a confirmation roll for the ability). If this second attack roll fails, the bandit does no damage (0 points). If the roll succeeds, the target then makes a reflex save (DC 10+ class level/2). If the target's save is successful, the bandit deals minimum weapon damage (as if all rolls had come up with 1). If the target fails the save, the bandit does normal (not critical) damage and bilnds the target for 2d4 rounds.
As if that wasn't enough, this ability does not work on targets immune to critical hits, with no discernable eyes or any form of concealment, or against targets who are too large for the bandit to reach its eyes (for a medium creature, a large (tall) creature is too large).
This reminds me of AD&D in that you get a cool ability that is immediately countered with obtrusive mechanics.
The gutter mage gets an ability that makes him go unnoticed in crowds. Any guards etc. have to succeed at a Spot check vs. his Disguise check. If the check succeeds, the guards can see the gutter mage but still don't see him as a threat or anything special. So the effect of the Spot check is largely for naught.
The Fortune Hunter (a 15-level (!) prestige class) gets an ability called "lethal". She chooses a wepoan and gets +1 to the critical multiplier (a longsword doing x3 damage). This ability stacks with Improved Critical, but not with Keen enchantments. Why? To me it seems random.
btw, the 15th-level ability means that the FH will always be lucky in a chase (there's a boat anchored at the quai, or a mattress beneath the window). While it's certainly a nifty ability, even with excessive chases (barsoomcore?), I wonder how often this ability sees play. And you go 15 levels for that? Anyway, this is about mechanics, so onwards.
Aside from clunky mechanics, other passages seem to suggest a lack of basic rules knowledge:
The spell "Roof Runner" allows a character to move on horizontal surfaces without penalty (?) and make large jumps (no mechanical benefit). The spell "Fortune's Armor" grants a +5 luck bonus to AC, and Baur explains that this bonus is also in effect when flat-footed, against touch attacks and that contrary to a normal armor bonus, it has no spell failure chance, no maximum speed and incorporeal creatures cannot bypass it. It's a luck bonus - duh!
Another spell has a "coneshaped burst", when it's got a cone-shaped area of effect and is not, in fact, a burst. Or you get "the target can't take any actions for 1 round, but it defends itself normally" instead of "the target is dazed", or "the target is blinded, and he takes a -2 penalty to AC, loses his dex bonus to AC, moves at half speed, has a 50% miss chance and cannot make attacks of opportunity."
Now, these things influence how you see other content. Is the feat Cool Under Pressure too good, giving you the ability to take 10 under stress on Climb, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Search, Spot, Use Magic Device. (Prereq.: Wis 13)
What about Cutting Remark, allowing you to make an opponent attack you in a peaceful situation with a succesful bluff check (no DC or opposed skill is given). Is A Step Ahead, allowing you to use luck points to repeat actions ad nauseum until they succeed, too good? With the feeling I get from other parts of the book, I'd rather err on the side of caution.
Magic armor and magic wepoan enchantments get a fixed price. For example, Hidden is +1,500 GM (Silent as well), Fortune +8,000 and Midnight +1,000. Other magic items have "screw the player"-abilities put into them like having to make a Will save when in sight of an expensive item or having to do everything (including combat) to get it. It just reads like AD&D.
Coupled with the fact that you already have good rules for gambling (Tournaments. Fairs & Taverns), chases (Hot Pursuit), guilds (either OGL Horror/13 conspiracies or Guildcraft), and that a fate point system seems to be in nearly every rulebook currently published (and I got my beefs with the luck system, too) - well, the few parts of the book that are worthwile and at least somewhat unique make up maybe 10-20 % of the book.
DungeonmasterCal
First Post
While I've not had time to read it closely, I will say that at first blush I agree with Berandor on the clunkiness of some of the mechanics. I don't have it at hand, but some of the feats seem very munchkin ("Cool Under Pressure" for one) as well as a feat that gives you an additional 1d6 to sneak attacks, and another that gives you an additional 1d6 on ranged sneak attacks. I don't remember, but I don't know if they stack or not. There is another feat that lets you roll 1d8 instead of d6's for the first two damage die in a sneak attack.
The Gutter Mage is a great concept, and some of the spells are pretty cool. I do like the ability to steal a spell using Sleight of Hand the Gutter Mage gets (I really think Complete Adventurer's Spellthief should've been given a similar mechanic instead of just stealing on a sneak attack). I'll probably actually houserule that the Spellthief CAN use the Sleight of Hand method if desired (the Gutter Mage can do either...sneak attack spell theft or Sleight of Hand. I see no reason the Spellthief can't).
Anyway...that's all I've had time to really read over. I have to say I'm a little let down so far, having liked The Book of Iron Might so much.
The Gutter Mage is a great concept, and some of the spells are pretty cool. I do like the ability to steal a spell using Sleight of Hand the Gutter Mage gets (I really think Complete Adventurer's Spellthief should've been given a similar mechanic instead of just stealing on a sneak attack). I'll probably actually houserule that the Spellthief CAN use the Sleight of Hand method if desired (the Gutter Mage can do either...sneak attack spell theft or Sleight of Hand. I see no reason the Spellthief can't).
Anyway...that's all I've had time to really read over. I have to say I'm a little let down so far, having liked The Book of Iron Might so much.
DungeonmasterCal
First Post
Psion said:
Gack...I forgot about FFG's feat...
Good point. This does seem a lil' less munchiny now.
JoeBlank
Explorer
Well, you guys have just about talked me out of buying this book, and I thank you for saving me the money. I hate to deprive the creators of a sale, but I hate spending my money and being disappointed too.
This is the reason I have stopped buying everything as soon as it comes out. Instead, I wait for a few reviews and see how others are liking the product after a little playtesting. It has saved me a lot, and it has also caused me to buy books that I was not certain about at first.
This is the reason I have stopped buying everything as soon as it comes out. Instead, I wait for a few reviews and see how others are liking the product after a little playtesting. It has saved me a lot, and it has also caused me to buy books that I was not certain about at first.
Nightcloak
First Post
I'm working on a review to post this weekend. Mind you I'm only half way through, and while I do agree that some of the mechanics could have been better, I do like the core classes (for a change). The gutter mage has great flavor and the ability to reflect spells, capture spells, or modify spells is quite cool IMHO. The shadowsworn is also packed with flavor and I can see it being used in many horror based or “things man should not know” sword and sorcery style games.
The prestige classes didn't impress me, but then again, most prestige classes don't impress me much. I did like the 15th level prestige class purely on being "outside the box" with 15 levels and the luck flavor ability at 15th level. Mind you, it is under powered for a 20th level character (buy the time you get it), but I did enjoy someone creating an ability that was purely flavor to enhance the game. I'd like more prestige classes if they gave this level of, well, "prestige" to a character. Greeat ideas, poor execution. It would be great with a rewrite if someone is iclined to take the time.
The luck system is interesting but a little flat. It does have some nifty perks I did like (like making charisma an interesting choice as an ability score). It favors the rogue type classes to much IMO, even if it is nice to see the bard get a boost because of it.
Needless, I think there was enough to make the 9 bucks worth the time for parts of the book, even if I tweek the core classes a little. They just struck me well and I see them sliding into my homebrew easily.
Well enough of that, I just wanted to stick up for some good parts of the book. No need to write the whole review here
The prestige classes didn't impress me, but then again, most prestige classes don't impress me much. I did like the 15th level prestige class purely on being "outside the box" with 15 levels and the luck flavor ability at 15th level. Mind you, it is under powered for a 20th level character (buy the time you get it), but I did enjoy someone creating an ability that was purely flavor to enhance the game. I'd like more prestige classes if they gave this level of, well, "prestige" to a character. Greeat ideas, poor execution. It would be great with a rewrite if someone is iclined to take the time.
The luck system is interesting but a little flat. It does have some nifty perks I did like (like making charisma an interesting choice as an ability score). It favors the rogue type classes to much IMO, even if it is nice to see the bard get a boost because of it.
Needless, I think there was enough to make the 9 bucks worth the time for parts of the book, even if I tweek the core classes a little. They just struck me well and I see them sliding into my homebrew easily.
Well enough of that, I just wanted to stick up for some good parts of the book. No need to write the whole review here
Etiquette_Gnome
First Post
Eh, I've always been one to accept flaws for what they are and not get too hung up on them, Rule Zero and all. In fact, I'll respond to each of the basic complaints in the rules systems.
* Cool under Pressure is a nifty idea, but having it affect soo many skills is a bit much, so I'll allow it to work only on two of the list (multiple times for multiple ones).
* The Bandit's Eye Strike one is a bit clunky, but the solution is easy for me; when you confirm a critical hit, you can choose to either do extra damage OR they can make the Reflex save (DC 10 + half level) to resist blindness while only doing normal damage. Easy, simple, and not really much in the way of thought.
* Gutter Mage's crowd hiding ability is peculiar in practice. I'd just reinterpret it as he won't alert people's attention when they do make the Spot check unless he makes a threatening move OR if the guards are specifically looking for that gutter mage (so if they notice him, they react accordingly).
The Lethal ability for the Fortune Hunter, that's a bit odd I agree, but it's easy enough to sort of blow off. And his luck in the chase ability is more an RP excuse for the DM to actually be nice to him in a game, which I don't really mind.
Roof Runner spell likely intended to be worded that if the surface is horizontal and capable of holding you weight, the width of the surface doesn't factor in the DC.
Yes, the redundant wording to define standard effects can be annoying, but that is a style issue for me.
Cutting Remark does make me worry a little bit, but that's one feat out of many, so removing it is easy. A Step Ahead looks fine in my eyes, as luck is a very finite resource.
Those 'screw player' items seem to be closer to cursed items or even minor artifacts, which is something that's already got precedence in 3.X Edition.
The rules for gambling, chases, guilds, and fate points are simply an attempt to be a well-rounded book. One should publish a good idea and not avoid it simply because some other company did it; I mean, what if you feel that yours is better? Do you let an inferior ruleset dominate, or let give the market a choice?
* Cool under Pressure is a nifty idea, but having it affect soo many skills is a bit much, so I'll allow it to work only on two of the list (multiple times for multiple ones).
* The Bandit's Eye Strike one is a bit clunky, but the solution is easy for me; when you confirm a critical hit, you can choose to either do extra damage OR they can make the Reflex save (DC 10 + half level) to resist blindness while only doing normal damage. Easy, simple, and not really much in the way of thought.
* Gutter Mage's crowd hiding ability is peculiar in practice. I'd just reinterpret it as he won't alert people's attention when they do make the Spot check unless he makes a threatening move OR if the guards are specifically looking for that gutter mage (so if they notice him, they react accordingly).
The Lethal ability for the Fortune Hunter, that's a bit odd I agree, but it's easy enough to sort of blow off. And his luck in the chase ability is more an RP excuse for the DM to actually be nice to him in a game, which I don't really mind.
Roof Runner spell likely intended to be worded that if the surface is horizontal and capable of holding you weight, the width of the surface doesn't factor in the DC.
Yes, the redundant wording to define standard effects can be annoying, but that is a style issue for me.
Cutting Remark does make me worry a little bit, but that's one feat out of many, so removing it is easy. A Step Ahead looks fine in my eyes, as luck is a very finite resource.
Those 'screw player' items seem to be closer to cursed items or even minor artifacts, which is something that's already got precedence in 3.X Edition.
The rules for gambling, chases, guilds, and fate points are simply an attempt to be a well-rounded book. One should publish a good idea and not avoid it simply because some other company did it; I mean, what if you feel that yours is better? Do you let an inferior ruleset dominate, or let give the market a choice?
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