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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7889215" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I don't think we can make any informed speculation about why the Warlord has been excluded (even if we have seen the whole of 4e, prior editions, the tongue-in-cheek 'devestation' of the edition war, and stayed on top of the two year public playtest, it's hard to say <em>what</em> they were thinking... heck, it always is). There's no precedent of the Warlord being the equal of the fighter (or any defender) in that role, though, and I don't think dbw is actually trying assert that it should be, just feels that the <em>first</em> extra attack, since so many classes (& sub-classes) have it isn't out of line for, well, anyone, really.</p><p></p><p>As in 5e, now, in 4e, it was not hard for any PC to be front-line capable in the basic sense of surviving on the front line for a bit and making a meaningful damage contribution... you could choose not be, but could do it with any class.</p><p></p><p>IMHO, the Warlord needs to be quite distinct from the Fighter, moreso than the Warlock is distinct from the Wizard or the Cleric from the Druid, because it has had such a long wait, and it is going to be held to more exacting standards than any other class in 5e. Skipping Extra Attack seems an obvious design choice. It scrubs the class of sustained single-target DPR (the highest-valued feature in the 5e 6-8 encounter-day balance scheme, really), leaving it design space for Support resources.</p><p></p><p>You had even less latitude to poach on other 'roles' in 4e, where they were formalized. A 4e Cleric, for instance, did not have nearly the Controller capability of the Wizard, a whole 'nuther 'Divine Controller' Class, the Invoker, was created for that. In 5e, through spell choice, a Cleric can be very good at control or support, prettymuch from one day to the next, or even just good at both, emphasizing one or the other round by round since casting is spontaneous.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>The Warlord was designed in the more tightly Role-defined environment of 4e, the danger of making a true-to-the-original Warlord is making it too limited, underpowered, or not versatile enough to stand as a viable choice in the same game with the 5e versions of it's fellow '<s>Leader'</s> (Support) classes, like the Cleric & Bard. </p><p></p><p>The Warlord concept - and 5e is notionally concept-first in design, among other maxims - touched on all the usual support functions, restoring hps, granting temps, buffing & enabling allies, plus the fairly novel action-granting; shaded into controller functions like creating situational advantages, de-buffing, restricting, influencing (tricking) the enemy; and could make basic personal contributions in melee as fighters/clerics/rogues (most non-MUs, really) have always done. 4e, like 5e, made everyone pretty decent at basic combat, so that was (and is) no big deal. 5e, though, is much freer with support characters taking up controller functions, so that's some design space opened up, for the 'Hector' style of Warlord particularly.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Really, as upset as it's easy to get at the notion of a potential 5e Warlord not being as good as the 4e, it'd not be hard at all for it to be <em>better.</em></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7889215, member: 996"] I don't think we can make any informed speculation about why the Warlord has been excluded (even if we have seen the whole of 4e, prior editions, the tongue-in-cheek 'devestation' of the edition war, and stayed on top of the two year public playtest, it's hard to say [I]what[/I] they were thinking... heck, it always is). There's no precedent of the Warlord being the equal of the fighter (or any defender) in that role, though, and I don't think dbw is actually trying assert that it should be, just feels that the [I]first[/I] extra attack, since so many classes (& sub-classes) have it isn't out of line for, well, anyone, really. As in 5e, now, in 4e, it was not hard for any PC to be front-line capable in the basic sense of surviving on the front line for a bit and making a meaningful damage contribution... you could choose not be, but could do it with any class. IMHO, the Warlord needs to be quite distinct from the Fighter, moreso than the Warlock is distinct from the Wizard or the Cleric from the Druid, because it has had such a long wait, and it is going to be held to more exacting standards than any other class in 5e. Skipping Extra Attack seems an obvious design choice. It scrubs the class of sustained single-target DPR (the highest-valued feature in the 5e 6-8 encounter-day balance scheme, really), leaving it design space for Support resources. You had even less latitude to poach on other 'roles' in 4e, where they were formalized. A 4e Cleric, for instance, did not have nearly the Controller capability of the Wizard, a whole 'nuther 'Divine Controller' Class, the Invoker, was created for that. In 5e, through spell choice, a Cleric can be very good at control or support, prettymuch from one day to the next, or even just good at both, emphasizing one or the other round by round since casting is spontaneous. The Warlord was designed in the more tightly Role-defined environment of 4e, the danger of making a true-to-the-original Warlord is making it too limited, underpowered, or not versatile enough to stand as a viable choice in the same game with the 5e versions of it's fellow '[S]Leader'[/S] (Support) classes, like the Cleric & Bard. The Warlord concept - and 5e is notionally concept-first in design, among other maxims - touched on all the usual support functions, restoring hps, granting temps, buffing & enabling allies, plus the fairly novel action-granting; shaded into controller functions like creating situational advantages, de-buffing, restricting, influencing (tricking) the enemy; and could make basic personal contributions in melee as fighters/clerics/rogues (most non-MUs, really) have always done. 4e, like 5e, made everyone pretty decent at basic combat, so that was (and is) no big deal. 5e, though, is much freer with support characters taking up controller functions, so that's some design space opened up, for the 'Hector' style of Warlord particularly. Really, as upset as it's easy to get at the notion of a potential 5e Warlord not being as good as the 4e, it'd not be hard at all for it to be [I]better.[/I] [/QUOTE]
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