boring combat

[Mouseferatu]

[*]A true horde of monsters. For all the talk of wading through hordes of Goblins and Orcs, when was the last time your party fought more than a dozen of anything at once? Try 50 Goblins. [/List]

I've done that. I've thrown 60 orcs at one party, over a hundred kobolds at another. Once the heroes have reached even the low mid-levels, it doesn't work.

A handful of well-placed Fireballs will wipe out 50 goblins as easily as they'll kill one. And I've yet to find a believable way to let a horde of goblins sneak up on a party until they're too close to use area spells. To say nothing of the fact that a single mid-level fighter with the right feats can kill 6 or 8 in one round, and they can probably only hit him on a natural 20.

(Although I have an amusing image of 50 goblins up on tiptoes, each "ssh!"-ing the one behind them. "Be vewy, vewy quiet. We're hunting adventuwews...")

The "big monster you can't defeat but have to escape from" works well, however. I've done that several times.

Your other option is a big monster that the PCs have to work around, rather than defeat. Pitted a party of three 12th level characters against a Balor at the end of my last campaign. Slaughter, right? No, because they didn't have to kill it, just manage to get past it. One of the most dramatic combats of the campaign, and the only one in which a PC died, but they ultimately won.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

One more note on the battlefield conditions. Consider heavy snow (which, IIRC, reduces movement to 1/2 or 1/4). When PCs and their enemies have movement vastly reduced, all of a sudden tactics that weren't viable become much more viable. For instance, it's much less dangerous to use a bow thirty feet away from your enemies when their movement is 10 feet per round.

This would also make characters or villains who have a method to gain normal or semi-normal or simply enhanced mobility (snowshoes, expeditious retreat, freedom of movement (spell or domain ability), etc.) far more dangerous than ever as they could single out any PC more than 10 feet from another party member and retreat before they could expect reprisals. This would make the PCs (and non-mobile enemies) more likely to bunch up and therefore more vulnerable to area effect spells.

 

[hong]

I've done that. I've thrown 60 orcs at one party, over a hundred kobolds at another. Once the heroes have reached even the low mid-levels, it doesn't work.

A handful of well-placed Fireballs will wipe out 50 goblins as easily as they'll kill one. And I've yet to find a believable way to let a horde of goblins sneak up on a party until they're too close to use area spells. To say nothing of the fact that a single mid-level fighter with the right feats can kill 6 or 8 in one round, and they can probably only hit him on a natural 20.

Think of the aliens in Alien, Aliens and Alien^3. In a straight confrontation on open ground with a platoon of colonial marines, they would be toast. Sure, they're fast and tough, but they also have no ranged weapons, no smarts (except bloodlust and animal cunning), and no backup. Remember that the one time in Aliens where the xenos charged two emplaced MGs, they got slaughtered handily. In D&D terms, they're just like orcs, ogres or any other nasty but mundane monster.

Why were the aliens so terrifying? Because all the movies took place in locations that largely negated the marines' advantages. You can't call in an artillery strike if the fight is taking place underground or inside a huge complex. You can't use suppressive fire effectively if all combat takes place within ranges of 30 feet. Etc.

You can do this in D&D too, and what's even better, it's entirely natural in the game to have fights in dungeons. Instead of "orcish wave" attacks that get plowed under by fireballs, have small groups rush the PCs. Force them to expend their precious wand charges and spell slots dealing with each individual group. Then build up to the big confrontation with the mama orc.

 

[hong]

Also, I don't see anything wrong with PCs slaughtering heaps of orcs or any other mooks. They're _supposed_ to win, after all. As long as you win with style, that trumps all else.

 

[Black Omega]

Also, I don't see anything wrong with PCs slaughtering heaps of orcs or any other mooks. They're _supposed_ to win, after all. As long as you win with style, that trumps all else.

Cool definately rules. It's a better challenge to work into the mix some tougher orcs, ogres, whatever, to go with the horde 'o mooks. Depends on the players, I've known some that would love an entire night of rolling and killing off hundreds of basic, 'no chance in hell of really doing any damage' orcs.

 

[Darklone]

I often skipped the 13,3333 encounters per level and gave my players one big battle.

To the above poster with the 50 gobilns... I harassed my players (lvl6 average) for hours with 15 hobgoblins in military formations. Sure, some fireballs hurt, but 50 goblins will not be wiped out by some fireballs if they spread.

Kobolds like to use traps... Show me how the fighter uses whirlwind hanging head down from a rope?

Guerilla tactics may be funny. Don't let your characters sleep. Hunt them. Taunt them. Divine spellcasters will easily prepare their spells again (but you can always disrupt the morning sermon!)

Big battles are horribly tough to balance. But I think it's worth it.

 

[Uller]

Besides...50 goblins does not a horde make. Try 500...or 5000! Back them up with a handful of nasties like Ogres, Trolls or even Giants. Now you've got a nigh unstoppable wave of death that can rush down upon even relatively high level PCs. I'm running a game for some 15th level characters and I'm pretty sure if they say 5000 hobgoblins and 20 trolls, they'd teleport away. So to make it really interesting have them attack in waves. Each wave is an appropriate EL for the party...but each shows up before the last one is completely destroyed. After 3 or 4 waves, the flood gates open.

The other DM in my group did this to us with some demons recently. It started out with a handful of fodder types that seemed to only have one or two HD, backed up by a single tougher demon (probably around 8 or 10 HD with DR of +2/?). We were all 6th or 7th level. We made quick work of the first wave, but spend a lot of spells and stuff on the bigger demon...then more started coming...and more and more...evenutually we had no choice but to beat feet. By the time we escaped we were low on HP and spells and still had the rest of the adventure to face...The game is more fun when you can't win every fight.

 

[Greybar]

"An unstoppable monster, like the Balrog/Balor released by delving dwarves. The heroes can only hope to escape it -- and, perhaps, rescue some hapless allies. "


Heh... casting the mind back about a year...

"The paladin slowly begins to turn, searching the sound that has set the ranger on edge. Something is following them. There is a brief snap that the ranger's ears pick up, and he points the paladin towards a tree. She places a hand upon her sword, and calls upon her goddess-given powers to see the soul of evil. Her breath suddenly fails her, her eyes glazing over as the force of the evil aura stuns her."

[back at the gaming table]
player1: "Um, what does it mean when you're stunned by your own Detect Evil?"
[quick flip]
player2: "It has at least twice her level."
[panic ensues]
player3: "okay, we're 6th level. How many 3rd level villains could we knock off without trying? That's us..."

And that's when the Deeper Darkness enveloped the party.

Fortunately the intruder wanted to size them up, not attack them, and it slipped away after taking a vicious Sneak Attack on the paladin.

They're two levels higher now. Perhaps they're ready to challenge the evil now. Of course, perhaps it has gained two levels also...

John

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Hordes and hordes

I'm all for sending in hordes of bad guys from time to time. Especially if you have characters who have taken the necessary feats to make themselves that sort of combat machine.

After all, if you had a spellcaster you'd be annoyed if there was never an opportunity to use your spells, right?

The trick is that, at a certain level, low level opponents stop producing experience points. I don't have my DMG with me today, but let's just say that a goblin, at less than 1 cr, is worth no XP to a pc that kills it. Remember, you figure the difficulty of an encounted based on numbers, but figure the experience based on the individual creatures, so even if my player who has a 9th level dwarf with great cleave and a huge greataxe fights the goblin horde and manages to cleave his way through 1,000 goblins before breakfast, he'll gain no XP for it.

The same goes for the spellcaster that tosses around a few fireballs and wipes out scores at a time.

The PCs will find it satisfying to carve through the enemy like this, but it will do very little for them. At the same time, while they're busy taking on the hordes, the goblin leaders can be setting them up for something sneakier . . .

-rg

 

[Darklone]

Not really sure how many ghouls Pcat threw at his characters.... a few hundred ?