Boring Skill Mastery

[GMforPowergamers]

I need if +1 or stat mod, and take 6 or die roll would be a More except able? Then an 8 wis trained in spot theif has a floor of10?

Then both can scale, the 6 floor goes up every 3 levels the +1 up every 6

So at 20th level it would be roll or 12 and stat or+4

 

[Kelvor Ravenstar]

My experience so far with Playtest 2 has not been positive with some aspects of Skill Mastery.
I'm fine with a baseline compentency for Rogues, like with the substitute a +3 for a lower ability score.
But as a DM, I disliked having my Rogue player be able to take 10 in any circumstance. There was no drama or excitement to skill checks, so traps were always avoided, sneaking always worked, and as my Rogue player had taken the Sage background, knowledge checks always revealed a lot of information. My Rogue player also felt that the take ten removed excitement from the roll.

I'd recommend either removing the take 10 option entirely, or lowering it to a take 5 that increased with level.

 

[ggboostrom]

Here's something to think about:

In D&DN, skills are not assumed when a PC makes a check, they're simply a bonus a PC can apply when the DM calls for an ability check or contest.

With that in mind, remember that rogue's have skill mastery, not ability mastery. I think the rule was written to apply only to the skills that a rogue is trained in, not every ability check a rogue makes.

I think giving rogues advantage on checks using 'skills' is another great way to implement this characteristic of rogues, but I think it's important that we understand the rule as it was intended.

 

[DEFCON 1]

With that in mind, remember that rogue's have skill mastery, not ability mastery. I think the rule was written to apply only to the skills that a rogue is trained in, not every ability check a rogue makes.

Very true... but with two Backgrounds... those 6 skills that the rogue is trained in cover a LOT of ground I've found. And what's worse is that (at least in regards to the Thief) the main focus of the character where he gets to do his schtick (and thus have the most fun and get the most drama out of it) are essentially reduced to nothing because of how many DCs he gets to auto-pass.

As a DM, I put down traps in my dungeon both to keep the party on their toes... but also to allow the Rogue to do... one of the main reasons the player wanted to play a Rogue in the first place. But to then cut him off at the knees by essentially removing the danger and drama of most traps is kinda lame to me.

The problem here is that what we want is for the Rogue to be better at using skills compared to the other classes... but not so powerful that the DM has to artificially inflate DCs just to give the Rogue a challenge. Especially considering those DCs he creates end up pushing all the other classes out of range from actually attempting them should there be a problem with the Rogue and he isn't there to do it (for whatever reason). Which was the whole thing the 'bounded accuracy' system and Advantage/Disadvantage were put in place to try and solve.

 

[Li Shenron]

The problem here is that what we want is for the Rogue to be better at using skills compared to the other classes... but not so powerful that the DM has to artificially inflate DCs just to give the Rogue a challenge. Especially considering those DCs he creates end up pushing all the other classes out of range from actually attempting them should there be a problem with the Rogue and he isn't there to do it (for whatever reason).

I say it's highly dependent on the skill.

Take a typical Rogue-ish skill: Find and Remove Traps or Open Lock.

"Picking a typical lock" is DC20. I cannot find a DC for "disarming a typical trap", but I think it's reasonable to assume DC20 as well.

This means that a 1st-level Rogue cannot automatically pick that lock or disarm that trap because her maximum ability bonus is +5 (and will always be) and her skill bonus is +3, hence take 10 is only 18. Even such "perfect" Rogue has to wait at least until level 5 to automatically pick a "typical lock" or disarm a typical trap.

On the other hand... some skills have a penalty for failure (called "hazard"). Now that is where the take 10 features kicks in... that Rogue is not going to set off the trap and suffer the penalties thanks to her Skill Mastery. This is of course situational, clearly there are other skills such as Pick Locks where there is no hazard to avoid.

I don't know why you are worried about raising the DC if you have a Rogue in the party. I could argue that a "typical lock" is well... typical, so if you are using something worse then you are actually doing the opposite i.e. lowering the DC to let others have a better chance. It's actually ok to do either.

If you check the probabilities of success for a Rogue vs a non-Rogue, you'll notice that they are exactly the same when the DC is higher than the one corresponding to a 50% chance (i.e. the DC which requires a roll of 11). The difference is for lower DCs, when the Rogue would have at least 55% chance of success, it defaults to automatic success.

Here there is a gamestyle issue IMHO: if in your game you put easy challenges that must be beaten in order to proceed (e.g. the locked door that is necessary to get past in order to continue with the adventure, the collapsing bridge that must be passed lest the PCs fall to death), and expect the PCs to normally beat all of them except the occasional one, then you are right that Skill Mastery can spoil that. But if you instead put hard challenges that don't block the game but enable some extras (e.g. the locked door with a bonus treasure or a shortcut behind) then they are going to have high DCs and Skill Mastery works actually great because take 10 can't help to beat, but can still keep the Rogue safe from the hazard.

Overall as I say, it's highly dependent on the skill tho... and for instance I certainly dislike this when applied to Lore checks!

 

[Rhenny]

I say it's highly dependent on the skill.

Take a typical Rogue-ish skill: Find and Remove Traps ...

Here there is a gamestyle issue IMHO: if in your game you put easy challenges that must be beaten in order to proceed (e.g. the locked door that is necessary to get past in order to continue with the adventure, the collapsing bridge that must be passed lest the PCs fall to death), and expect the PCs to normally beat all of them except the occasional one, then you are right that Skill Mastery can spoil that. But if you instead put hard challenges that don't block the game but enable some extras (e.g. the locked door with a bonus treasure or a shortcut behind) then they are going to have high DCs and Skill Mastery works actually great because take 10 can't help to beat, but can still keep the Rogue safe from the hazard.

Overall as I say, it's highly dependent on the skill tho... and for instance I certainly dislike this when applied to Lore checks!

I agree. In many campaigns, when there will be a rogue in the group, those Kobolds will have to make better traps. (DC 20) lol.