Born of the Three Thunders question

[Wikid Klown]

It says...

"Channeling the three thunders is costly, though, and you are automatically dazed for 1 round after doing so."

Now, some spells take a standard action to cast, some take a full round action. If it were a standard action spell and cast at the start, then the caster would only be able to take a partial round on the next round, loosing one standard action from the normal, since it would be one round. If it took a full round action or it was a standard action and was cast at the end, then it'd be the full next round, since it took them that round (or the end of it) to cast, putting them at the end of their next round when they are no longer dazed. It depends on the type of spell you cast and when you cast it more or less.

 

[shilsen]

That other "reading" is just a deliberate and cynical misinterpretation of both the rules, and the intention of the authors.

Deliberate and cynical misinterpretation? You are a funny, funny man

This is the only reference to the way that effects expire after a certain number of rounds to be found in the rules.

Yup. Which is why that's the reference we should be using.

The dazed condition begins at the next point at which you are able to take actions, which is your next turn.

Huh? The dazed condition begins immediately after you cast the spell. You're not actually suggesting that "automatically dazed for 1 round after doing so" means that there's a lag time between casting the spell and becoming dazed, are you?

 

[Merlion]

The dazed condition begins at the next point at which you are able to take actions

No, the feat description specfically states that you are dazed immediately after casting the affected spell, not that it begins at the next point that you can take actions.

So, if you do not lose your actions on your next turn, the effect on the caster of casting a Three Thunders spell is nothing

Not neccesarily. Once you cast the spell, you can do nothing else that round. No quickened spells. No movement. No attacks of oportunity. No free/swift/immediate actions of any kind. Not nothing.

You might also notice that the word "round" has several meanings in D&D

Not really. It gets used in a couple different ways, but it only has one official technical meaning.

One of which is "from an initiative count on one round to the same count on the next round", in which case it indicates a temporal duration

Thats the technical definition.

Another meaning is "an allotment of actions which are taken to occur in less than or equal to six seconds."

That is not a definition of "round" in DND. A round helps define what you can do on your turn, but your allotment of actions and "a round" are not the same term.





I tend to think that the loss of a full round of actions is rather a hefty cost for this feat, when you consider the cost of the feat itself. First, it costs a feat. Second, to take it you have to take one feat to qualify that is for the most part sub optimal (the only mechanical use of taking Energy Sub (Electricity) is to qualify for Air Elemental Savant, and for the feat we are discussing), and you have to take ranks in a skill.
For a sorcerer in particular, the cost is quite high.
Add to that the loss of a round's actions, and it seems a bit much. It seems to me that the intention is to prevent you from doing anything else that round once you've cast a spell with it.

 

[hong]

Perhaps, but I'm just going off the RAW, so I'm focusing on how the rules work. Not whether it's unbalanced or overpowered or "dumb". That's a different matter.

The RAW do not, as far as I can recall, say anything about whether this particular effect switches off at the beginning or end of your next turn. The Stunning Fist feat says something about when the stunning effect switches off, but that's specific to that feat. Moreover, Stunning Fist creates a rather different situation, whereby the stunning takes effect on the target out of their turn, whereas with Bo3T, it takes effect on the target's turn itself.

Therefore, you have a choice of interpreting Bo3T under question in two ways: the reasonable way, so that you actually feel the effects of being dazed for one round; or the not-so-reasonable way, so that you don't.

 

[hong]

Not neccesarily. Once you cast the spell, you can do nothing else that round. No quickened spells. No movement. No attacks of oportunity. No free/swift/immediate actions of any kind. Not nothing.

So you do all that before casting the spell.

I tend to think that the loss of a full round of actions is rather a hefty cost for this feat,

 

[DM_Matt]

never mind

 

[shilsen]

The RAW do not, as far as I can recall, say anything about whether this particular effect switches off at the beginning or end of your next turn.

But the RAW does say something about how effcts that last 1 or more rounds work. Dr. Awkward quoted it above from the SRD, and it's on page 138 in the PHB. Namely - "Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same intitiative count that they began on". It applies to a Stunning Fist effect, to a Summon Monster spell, and to any other effects that last a number of rounds. The Born of the Three Thunders effect fits the category, so it applies.

Therefore, you have a choice of interpreting Bo3T under question in two ways: the reasonable way, so that you actually feel the effects of being dazed for one round; or the not-so-reasonable way, so that you don't.

When you say reasonable, I do not think you know what it means

 

[hong]

But the RAW does say something about how effcts that last 1 or more rounds work. Dr. Awkward quoted it above from the SRD, and it's on page 138 in the PHB. Namely - "Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same intitiative count that they began on". It applies to a Stunning Fist effect, to a Summon Monster spell, and to any other effects that last a number of rounds. The Born of the Three Thunders effect fits the category, so it applies.

If you want to be pedantic over such matters, consider that the dazing effect takes place after you have cast the spell. Thus, it can be thought of as taking place an instant after init count X, where X is the moment you cast the spell. It continues until the same instant next round, namely, just after init count X. Thus, you still lose your next action. Anything else is dumb.

When you say reasonable, I do not think you know what it means

Oh, I know exactly what it means. Unreasonable people may, of course, disagree.

 

[Merlion]

So you do all that before casting the spell

You may not neccesarily be able to.

My point is, you insist that if your not dazed the next round, the effect is nothing, but that is innacurate. The effect is once you cast a Born of the Three Thunders spell, you can take no further actions, not even a 5 foot step, in that round.


A minor drawback, but given how many times you've already paid for the feat, and the fact that you may or may not really even get much out of it, it seems fitting.

 

[shilsen]

If you want to be pedantic over such matters, consider that the dazing effect takes place after you have cast the spell. Thus, it can be thought of as taking place an instant after init count X, where X is the moment you cast the spell. It continues until the same instant next round, namely, just after init count X. Thus, you still lose your next action. Anything else is dumb.

Nice house rule. But I think Merlion was interested in finding out how the feat as written works, and that's what I was trying to cover. From his posts, it seems the idea's been communicated, so the job's done.

Oh, I know exactly what it means. Unreasonable people may, of course, disagree.

Aw, come on! According to your 1st law of gaming, you should be calling me a munchkin, and all I get is "unreasonable"? You cut me deep, hong, you cut me deep