Brakes Off - Multiclassing

Syntallah

First Post
I am strongly considering removing the multiclass power swap feats altogether. So, once you take the initial class-specific feat (i.e. Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, etc), you may freely choose powers from either of the two class power lists.

My questions are:

-does anyone see a balance issue, or another inherent problem with doing this?
-has anyone played it this way, and if so, what were your results?
 

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Mad Hamish

First Post
I am strongly considering removing the multiclass power swap feats altogether. So, once you take the initial class-specific feat (i.e. Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, etc), you may freely choose powers from either of the two class power lists.

My questions are:

-does anyone see a balance issue, or another inherent problem with doing this?
-has anyone played it this way, and if so, what were your results?

I think it's going to be a problem for some combinations of classes, especially if you include at-wills.

Imagine a dex 20, low str ranger who picks up the rogue multi-class and gains the ability to make hth attacks with dex.

Keep twin-strike and drop the one that lets you shift a square and you're useful in melee as well as ranged.
 


Evilhalfling

Adventurer
the at-will are where this is going to bite you.
Fighters with righteous brand and rouges with twin strike ...people will cherry pick the best at wills.


My HR is that there is a single feat (advanced training) that allows you to trade up trade up to 1 daily,1 encounter, 1 utility in your second class. but I kept the at-will switch as part of paragon multi-classing. Apparently Martial power allows other class features to be gained via feats....
 


Syntallah

First Post
the at-will are where this is going to bite you.
Fighters with righteous brand and rouges with twin strike ...people will cherry pick the best at wills.

snip

Absolutely true. I guess I had this solved in my head, as I would only allow encounter/utility/daily powers to be swapped out. Essentially I plan on merely combining the three feats (novice, acolyte, adept) into one:

Power Swap Freely
Prerequisite: Any class-specific multiclass feat, 2nd level
Benefit: You may choose new powers gained from either class list
 

Syntallah

First Post
Be ready for every PC to use it, because it makes the multi-classing feats even more powerful than they already are.

I guess this is one of the reasons I am posting this thread. I really don't see how powerful they are. Quite the opposite in fact.

For instance, at 4th level, I can burn a feat slot to change my currently known 3rd level encounter power, to one from my second class. Meanwhile, my friend keeps his 3rd level power known, and picks up a +4 to initiative / +1 on damage / +1 to saves / etc...
 

Jraynack

Explorer
Essentially, all I am doing is removing the 'limit of three powers gained from your other class'.

If that is all you want to accomplish, simply take that limit off - essentially say, when you take those feats, instead of "altering your previous decision each level" the character can choose a different primary power an replace it with a power from their second class.

You can also put a restriction that they can swap a number of powers equal to their second class feat prerequisite ability modifier - for example a Rogue character with a Wis 14 (+2 modifier) chooses Initiate of the Faith and then Novice Power. They can now have up to two Cleric encounter powers until they move up their Wis modifier to a +3.

It is still powerful, but still forces characters to level in a multiclass Paragon Path for at-will powers.
 
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aurance

Explorer
Most people consider the power swap feats to be a reasonable deal.

At face value, it looks like you're losing out - because essentially you're burning a feat but not gaining any powers. However, the versatility gained by power swapping once or more times is very worth it, depending on your build concept. And the fact of the matter is that there are some levels where none of the powers may appeal to you (or they may all suck) - a feat is a reasonable cost to swap in the best power of that level from another class.
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
I guess this is one of the reasons I am posting this thread. I really don't see how powerful they are. Quite the opposite in fact.

For instance, at 4th level, I can burn a feat slot to change my currently known 3rd level encounter power, to one from my second class. Meanwhile, my friend keeps his 3rd level power known, and picks up a +4 to initiative / +1 on damage / +1 to saves / etc...

True. However, each class has it's own restrictions. A warlock, for example, has a number of utilities [and even some attacks] which he can use to teleport around, they are usable each encounter. Nearly every other class may get a daily power that does that, or they are stuck shifting. So, just getting that option is big.

It is ultimately going to depend on what you are swapping ... but for some [i.e. a tiefling warlock mc'ing into wizard for example] can use the swapping to make sure every power is fear or fire based for use with hellfire blood.

The feat effectively doubles the options, including giving you options that aren't necessarily designed for your class.

A cleric/ranger, for example, can get some great powers to shift away, taking advantage of their awesome wisdom. A warlock multi'd into rogue can get the benefit of some cool stealth based utilities to work with your walking concealment for some crazy tricks (especially with eyebite to give you total concealment ... at least against one guy). As a rogue, you can take some powers from the warlock to make yourself invisible. Or you can go into ranger to get multi attacks to increase your chance of hitting your sneak attack. Etc, etc, etc.

You get tons of options from the feat ... the value of the feat is ultimately going to be determined by how useful the "new" power is compared to what you would have otherwise taken. [Assuming you aren't taking the feats to get the paragon multiclass path].
 

cmbarona

First Post
To the OP, I should mention that as long as you exclude at-wills and only allow swapping powers instead of adding them on, I don't see it being too overpowered.

That said, I often wonder if people's hangups about multiclassing arise not from multiclassing, but from Paragon multiclassing. IMHO, I think the at-will should be added, not swapped. Other corrections are of course necessary, but that's my biggest problem with it at the moment.
 

-Avalon-

First Post
My only question is:

Do you have to pick that feat each time you wish to swap something? or is it pick something one time, and can swap from then on?

well, second question also...

Does the player gain any more of the basic class features from the second class? Otherwise, you are only swapping abilities and not really gaining the needed parts of the class for PP's and such...
 

ShinRyuuBR

First Post
I've done about the same thing a couple of months ago. The thread must be buried somewhere around here.

First, I made a feat called simply Power Swap, which has the MC initation feat as prerequisite. With this feat, you can trade powers up to half of each category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack and utility).

Then, recognizing the potential problems in so much freedom, I placed a simple restriction: if you are multiclassing out of your primary role, then your highest-level power in each of the 4 categories must be from your primary class. For example, if you are a 3rd level fighter/rogue, you may have a rogue level 1 encounter attack but not a level 3 one; on the other hand, if you are a 3rd level ranger/rogue, you may have a rogue encounter attack of level 1 or 3 (although not both). After all, powers between the same role overlap reasonably, while those between different roles represent a much greater versatility.

The power swapping is valid throughout all 30 levels, but must always observe the restriction of not having more powers from the secondary class than from the primary one, in each category.

If you choose the Paragon Multiclassing option, your paragon powers must be from your secondary class as normal, and these also count against your limit of powers from the secondary class (see above).

In Paragon MC, starting at 11th level, when you use an action point, you may use an encounter power from your secondary class without expending its use, and may use it as if recharged if you have already used it.

Also, at 16th level, you gain a new class feature from your secondary class (I made a list of these).

Another thing that bothered me were the Pact Initiate and Arcane Initiate feats. Unlike other MC feats, they do not grant class features, but actual class powers. Also, I feel every wizard should begin his training with cantrips. So, instead of gaining a 1st level at-will power, he gains all cantrips (note he's just 1 feat away of actually trading one of his own at-wills for a wizard one). And the Pact Initate grants the warlock's curse once per encounter, along with the pact boon.

I realize the Arcane Initiate benefit is quite dull, but its a simple lack of class features. It would make little sense to give the Spellbook feature with the first feat, since at that point you can't learn wizard powers and should not be forced to get another feat (Ritual Caster) to enjoy its benefit. So there are the cantrips and implement mastery. As I said before, at 16th a new class feature is gained, and its usually a very nice one, so full implement mastery would be gained then. Thus cantrips with the first feat.

I'll post more about this later.
 
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Henry

Autoexreginated
Keeping this in mind, why wouldn't EVERYONE pick up multiclassing with this house rule? With you getting this feat, you still get 6 or 7 other feats by 10th level, and being able to swap out as you please with two different class' powersis a tremendous bonus, moreso than anything any other feat gives. Plus, your prime stat naturally lends itself to at least one other class (swordmage/wizard, warlord/fighter, rogue/ranger, etc.) so you'd easily have the necessary scores. It would be silly NOT to pick it up, other than a willful desire to ignore power over flavor, for someone who REALLY only wants a single class.

I think it would be disproportionate to the power of other feats. If I were attempting it, I'd blend the first two multiclass feats into one feat, and the other two multiclass feats into a second feat, to make it at least two feat picks required.
 

ShinRyuuBR

First Post
Good question, that would be answered by the later part of the house rule, where I put skill or proficiency prerequisites to the initate feats, instead of giving free skills. I'd post it here right away if not for the fact it's not in English yet. ;)
 

brehobit

Explorer
The issue is that even ignoring at wills, some classes have better powers. It's not a design problem per se. Rather some classes get more non-power things (hit points, prof., class abilities) while others get more power-related things.

Wizards, on the whole, have great utilities. Shield is great for example. So is blur.

My Fighter will be taking 2 of the power swap feats (utility, daily) because it is so clearly worth it. I've yet to see a build where a wizard would take a power swap feat because generally they have the best powers (and very few other powers work off of them).

The cost of the feat balances this out quite a bit. I'd take the encounter swap too (healing strike isn't bad at all), but _that_ isn't worth the feat in my opinion. Better than my fighter options, but the difference isn't as good as weapon focus or toughness...

mark
 



jedavis

First Post
I could actually see playing 4e with an unlimited-multiclass feat like that... perhaps restrict it so that you can only take it once if you're concerned about rampant multiclassing. Or add some 'reqs.
 

BlindGeekUK

First Post
In my game, we've handled it as:

Multiclass feats remain named as they are

Once multiclassed, you are considered to be that class for feat pre-reqs

New powers at each level MUST be from original class

You can multi class once during heroic tier (at level 1 or 2 or 4), and once during paragon tier

Your paragon path has to be from your original class

When multi-classing, you gain 1 class skill, 1 at-will from new class as a encounter power and 1 class feature

New feats to replace PHB power swap feats: Multi-Class Power Swap, Multi-Class Additional Power, Multi-Class Additional Feature, Multi-Class Additional Skill

Power swap feat means you can, when re-training encounter/utility/daily, choose it from any ONE of your classes
Additional power feat gives you an additional at-will from the new class as an encounter power
Additional feature feat gives you an additional class feature benefit from the new class
Additional skill gives you an additional class skill from the new class


We also have a house rule that at level 4 you get an additional at will, mainly so that the players can take advantage of the new powers in the books without retraining.

We have a 3rd level ranger who is about 50 points of level 4, and his feat at level 4 is homebrew, allowing to gain a beast companion that flees when bloodied. His extra at-will will then be a beast realted power
 

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