Brakes Off - Multiclassing

[Syntallah]

I am strongly considering removing the multiclass power swap feats altogether. So, once you take the initial class-specific feat (i.e. Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, etc), you may freely choose powers from either of the two class power lists.

My questions are:

-does anyone see a balance issue, or another inherent problem with doing this?
-has anyone played it this way, and if so, what were your results?

 

[Mad Hamish]

I am strongly considering removing the multiclass power swap feats altogether. So, once you take the initial class-specific feat (i.e. Initiate of the Faith, Student of the Sword, etc), you may freely choose powers from either of the two class power lists.

My questions are:

-does anyone see a balance issue, or another inherent problem with doing this?
-has anyone played it this way, and if so, what were your results?

I think it's going to be a problem for some combinations of classes, especially if you include at-wills.

Imagine a dex 20, low str ranger who picks up the rogue multi-class and gains the ability to make hth attacks with dex.

Keep twin-strike and drop the one that lets you shift a square and you're useful in melee as well as ranged.

 

[Syntallah]

I think it's going to be a problem for some combinations of classes, especially if you include at-wills.

snip

Isn't that a possible problem with the RAW?

Essentially, all I am doing is removing the 'limit of three powers gained from your other class'.

 

[Evilhalfling]

the at-will are where this is going to bite you.
Fighters with righteous brand and rouges with twin strike ...people will cherry pick the best at wills.


My HR is that there is a single feat (advanced training) that allows you to trade up trade up to 1 daily,1 encounter, 1 utility in your second class. but I kept the at-will switch as part of paragon multi-classing. Apparently Martial power allows other class features to be gained via feats....

 

[James McMurray]

Be ready for every PC to use it, because it makes the multi-classing feats even more powerful than they already are.

 

[Syntallah]

the at-will are where this is going to bite you.
Fighters with righteous brand and rouges with twin strike ...people will cherry pick the best at wills.

snip

Absolutely true. I guess I had this solved in my head, as I would only allow encounter/utility/daily powers to be swapped out. Essentially I plan on merely combining the three feats (novice, acolyte, adept) into one:

Power Swap Freely
Prerequisite: Any class-specific multiclass feat, 2nd level
Benefit: You may choose new powers gained from either class list

 

[Syntallah]

Be ready for every PC to use it, because it makes the multi-classing feats even more powerful than they already are.

I guess this is one of the reasons I am posting this thread. I really don't see how powerful they are. Quite the opposite in fact.

For instance, at 4th level, I can burn a feat slot to change my currently known 3rd level encounter power, to one from my second class. Meanwhile, my friend keeps his 3rd level power known, and picks up a +4 to initiative / +1 on damage / +1 to saves / etc...

 

[Jraynack]

Essentially, all I am doing is removing the 'limit of three powers gained from your other class'.

If that is all you want to accomplish, simply take that limit off - essentially say, when you take those feats, instead of "altering your previous decision each level" the character can choose a different primary power an replace it with a power from their second class.

You can also put a restriction that they can swap a number of powers equal to their second class feat prerequisite ability modifier - for example a Rogue character with a Wis 14 (+2 modifier) chooses Initiate of the Faith and then Novice Power. They can now have up to two Cleric encounter powers until they move up their Wis modifier to a +3.

It is still powerful, but still forces characters to level in a multiclass Paragon Path for at-will powers.

 

[aurance]

Most people consider the power swap feats to be a reasonable deal.

At face value, it looks like you're losing out - because essentially you're burning a feat but not gaining any powers. However, the versatility gained by power swapping once or more times is very worth it, depending on your build concept. And the fact of the matter is that there are some levels where none of the powers may appeal to you (or they may all suck) - a feat is a reasonable cost to swap in the best power of that level from another class.

 

[WalterKovacs]

I guess this is one of the reasons I am posting this thread. I really don't see how powerful they are. Quite the opposite in fact.

For instance, at 4th level, I can burn a feat slot to change my currently known 3rd level encounter power, to one from my second class. Meanwhile, my friend keeps his 3rd level power known, and picks up a +4 to initiative / +1 on damage / +1 to saves / etc...

True. However, each class has it's own restrictions. A warlock, for example, has a number of utilities [and even some attacks] which he can use to teleport around, they are usable each encounter. Nearly every other class may get a daily power that does that, or they are stuck shifting. So, just getting that option is big.

It is ultimately going to depend on what you are swapping ... but for some [i.e. a tiefling warlock mc'ing into wizard for example] can use the swapping to make sure every power is fear or fire based for use with hellfire blood.

The feat effectively doubles the options, including giving you options that aren't necessarily designed for your class.

A cleric/ranger, for example, can get some great powers to shift away, taking advantage of their awesome wisdom. A warlock multi'd into rogue can get the benefit of some cool stealth based utilities to work with your walking concealment for some crazy tricks (especially with eyebite to give you total concealment ... at least against one guy). As a rogue, you can take some powers from the warlock to make yourself invisible. Or you can go into ranger to get multi attacks to increase your chance of hitting your sneak attack. Etc, etc, etc.

You get tons of options from the feat ... the value of the feat is ultimately going to be determined by how useful the "new" power is compared to what you would have otherwise taken. [Assuming you aren't taking the feats to get the paragon multiclass path].