D&D 5E Bravely running away

[Micah Sweet]

Difficult in-character decisions are one thing, but this is you looking at the friend across the table from you, and deciding for them whether they still get to play their character or not. That's a whole different level of difficult.

Are you the one who knocked their PC unconscious? Did you order them into danger? If not, I don't see how it's your fault things went poorly. You're presumably a team, so do what is reasonable to bring them home, even take risks, but if it doesn't work out, there's no obligation to die for them.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

Part of the social contract of 5e is that the PCs will not flee from combat, and that the GM is designing all combats to be winnable.

I never signed that contract.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Yeah but have you used those guidelines? Something rated Deadly is typically a handy win, no deaths.

Yes that's what I said. That's working as intended.

Deadly encounters are tuned to drain about 1/3 of a party's daily resources. They shouldn't kill a party unless they're extremely low on resources, especially if you're playing with experienced player or players that are min-maxing hard.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

I never signed that contract.

Its what the game is designed for. As you stray from the game's assumptions for how it will be played, it has a tendency to break.

In this case, if you stray from the assumption that the game will be composed of a large number of winnable combat encounters, it breaks in that there are no proper procedures for the players running away.

 

[Piperken]

...So, to other DMs, if in the middle of combat players decide they should retreat, how would you run it?

Distracted suggests:

...I'd recommend 13th Age's Flee rules...
Fleeing is a party action. On any PC’s turn, any player can propose that all the characters flee the fight. If the players agree they successfully retreat, carrying any fallen PCs away with them. The party suffers a campaign loss- this can mean that the sacrificial victim gets sacrificed, characters lose valuable items, or otherwise valuable time or goals are lost.

The point of this rule is to make retreating interesting on a story level, rather than a tactical choice that rarely succeeds.

Quickleaf offered (based off Dungeon World?):

When the party chooses to retreat from danger, at any point on a player’s turn they make a group initiative check versus the passive initiative of their foes. A PC who is unable to move does not roll. A PC who is encumbered, carrying another PC, or slowed suffers disadvantage on the roll (i.e. they cannot escape unless group, I dunno, stuffs them in a bag of holding). A PC who had an escape plan in advance or who took action during the scene to facilitate escape gains advantage. Same goes for the monsters/NPCs.

If half or more of the PCs succeed, they escape. Otherwise, the scene continues and escape is no longer an option unless circumstances change. However, if they escape, for each PC who failed the check, the party must pick one:
• The party has been split up, and possibly lost.
• The party abandons the treasure or loses a significant item.
• Each PC takes damage equal to a single opportunity atack from the monsters/NPCs.
• Even if the monsters/NPCs could not, or chose not to, immediately pursue, they’re out there looking for the party.
• The party lands in some new sort of trouble

My leaning is toward more narrative rooted solutions for fleeing once engaged in combat, with some segue way from the grid portion. Chases and getaways should be cinematic! (Not to say that 5E can't reflect that.) Another option might be variations off of Level Up's rooftop run as well, tailored to whatever the tactical elements happen to be.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Everyone has different tastes and tolerances. Which is why I think it's a good idea to set boundaries and expectations before play (such as through a session 0).

Should be noted though that if you are running an actual sandbox-style game where the PCs get to choose what they attempt and where they
go, then a running away mechanic is pretty important. Because when given the freedom to do so, the PCs WILL invariably end up poking something they're not ready for. Unless maybe you hand them some unrealistic metagame mechanic like a CR range sheet.

Example of a higher combat speed failing in the real world:

 

[DrJawaPhD]

Its what the game is designed for.

Cite your sources please. You are quoting a bunch of specific details of "how the game is designed" that I have never heard anyone quote before.

I would argue that the game is designed for many different types of approaches, and that anyone claiming "DnD is designed for exactly X" is wrong every single time. For myself, I design all combats to be winnable but challenging, often including for a fully rested party only facing one combat per day. So yeah retreating is generally pretty rare but to claim there is some "social contract" where retreating basically isn't allowed... that's completely out of left field I don't even know what to say

 

[Lanefan]

Huh?

Human beings all have the same speed as each other, on average, and people have been successfully retreating for as long as there's been conflict. I am very confused by why this keeps being described as almost impossibly difficult in D&D. It's not; we do it all the time.

There are a zillion things players can come up with to make their escape, and in my experience players tend to be rather clever.

I feel like this is a DM issue, not a player or rules issue.

It is, to a point, a rules issue; in that the game mechanics handle movement as little 30-foot* teleports rather than as a fluid thing. I flee 30 feet away on my turn, you chase me 30 feet on your turn (and end up right next to me again) and maybe get to do something else as a bonus action, lather rinse repeat until your bonus actions whittle me down to dead.

Far better is that, when I flee, if I can put any distance between us - say for example I get 10 feet separation - that distance of separation remains constant unless something happens to change it e.g. I run into harsh terrain or you stop to take a bowshot at me or one of us tires or whatever. And this should be the case even if we're still operating round-by-round for other reasons e.g. I'm trying to draw the pursuer on to an ally who can bail me out.

* - or whatever someone's move-dash-sprint-etc. rate is

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Cite your sources please. You are quoting a bunch of specific details of "how the game is designed" that I have never heard anyone quote before.

I would argue that the game is designed for many different types of approaches, and that anyone claiming "DnD is designed for exactly X" is wrong every single time. For myself, I design all combats to be winnable but challenging, often including for a fully rested party only facing one combat per day. So yeah retreating is generally pretty rare but to claim there is some "social contract" where retreating basically isn't allowed... that's completely out of left field I don't even know what to say

The entire chapter 3 of the DMG, but specifically the encounter rules on pages 81 onwards.

To turn that around to you - can you find me any rules for designing and running encounters specifically designed not to be winnable by the party?

 

[Lanefan]

Hang on, I got house rules for that... slightly Dungeon World-esque

Retreat
When the party chooses to retreat from danger, at any point on a player’s turn they make a group initiative check versus the passive initiative of their foes. A PC who is unable to move does not roll. A PC who is encumbered, carrying another PC, or slowed suffers disadvantage on the roll (i.e. they cannot escape unless group, I dunno, stuffs them in a bag of holding). A PC who had an escape plan in advance or who took action during the scene to facilitate escape gains advantage. Same goes for the monsters/NPCs.

If half or more of the PCs succeed, they escape. Otherwise, the scene continues and escape is no longer an option unless circumstances change. However, if they escape, for each PC who failed the check, the party must pick one:
• The party has been split up, and possibly lost.
• The party abandons the treasure or loses a significant item.
• Each PC takes damage equal to a single opportunity atack from the monsters/NPCs.
• Even if the monsters/NPCs could not, or chose not to, immediately pursue, they’re out there looking for the party.
• The party lands in some new sort of trouble

The obvious thing missing from those rules is any (very realistic) result where some of the PCs escape while others do not; i.e. the party has been split up with some of them still in combat or captured or killed or whatever.