Breaking my Monster Manual NDA? Gotta share my joy...

Wulf Ratbane

Adventurer
Let me just say, in the most non-specific way I can, I LOVE the new Monster Manual.

I predict that this will be one of the ones that even reluctant revision adopters will want to pick up.

The ease of use of the material-- not just the presentation, but the kinds of new information presented-- is so friggin' handy. They learned some good lessons between Modern and 3.5!

I am so happy with this one, and I am ordinarily a pretty grumpy bastard...


Wulf
 

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How do you respond to JoeGKushner's rather more negative impressions? I'd be interested to hear what you think of the same features (in as general and non-specific a way as possible, of course;) ).
 

Olgar Shiverstone said:
How do you respond to JoeGKushner's rather more negative impressions?

Direct me... I am lazy and stupid.

[EDIT] And extremely burned out from editing Phil Reed's stuff all day... It's good stuff, but good lordy... 12+ hours and counting, and my brain is gon' 'splode.
 
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Here you go:

Edit: He did say it was worth buying, so perhaps "negative" is a bit much ... but it wasn't as glowing an endorsement as you gave, certainly.

1. Not all art is new. Layout is pretty similiar too.

2. Monster Manual is still piss poor in terms of layout and making the book readable. Very much the same book in terms of layout and style.

3. Full utilization of racial trats not made. The aranea has a level adjustment of +4 but no racial stats listed. Combat tactics are practically nonexsistant.

4. Templates aren't in a seperate section but in the main body of the text.

5.For the MM, Feats and one skill are at the back of the book. Some are simple like IMproved Natural Armor where you get a +1 bonus to AC while others like Empower Spell Like Ability will quickly even the meta-magic odds.

6. When listing monsters by CR, where is the page #? Not there.

7. There is some great new art. The giants, demons, and devils all have some new illustrations in there.

8. The Level Equivilence is not the same as the CR and every time I saw it, it was higher. i.e. a CR of +2 from a template wasn't a +2 to Level but maybe a +3 or +4.

9. Humanoids when listed, all have a class, usually warrior one.

10. Some creatures, instead of a level adjustment, have a note like Improved Familiar (quasit/imp) or cohert (mephits).

11. Lot of specialty creatures, usually a more powerful version of the mosnters in question. Take the Nessian Warhound, one of the devil prince's own hell hounds or the harpy archer, a 7th level harpy fighter.

12. Lot of beasts from Manual of the Planes updated here like the Inevitable and the Gith races.

13. Tons of examples for the templates. Skeleton has human warrior, wolf, owlbear, ettin, and others.

14.Racial Traits (I consider racial traits only valid if they have stat modifiers and may have missed some): Azer, bugbears, centaurs, doppelgangers, dwarves, elf, gargoyles, janni, hill giants, stone giants, githyanki, githzerai, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, grimlock, halfling, hobgoblin, kobold,s kuo-toa, lizard folk, mind flayers, minotaurs, ogre, ogre magi, orc, rakshasas, satyrs, troglodyte, and Yuan Ti Purebloods.

15. Tactics: Balor, Pit Fiend, Mind Flayer, Titan. I must've missed some but there weren't many listings.
 
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1. Not all art is new. Layout is pretty similiar too.

2. Monster Manual is still piss poor in terms of layout and making the book readable. Very much the same book in terms of layout and style.


I never really had a problem with the art in the first place. That's a wash for me.

I will admit, one monster per page is such a no brainer, and WOTC should be the publisher most able to accomodate the added cost this would incur. I agree with Joe on this one.

3. Full utilization of racial traits not made. The aranea has a level adjustment of +4 but no racial stats listed. Combat tactics are practically nonexsistant.

Disagree here. I think there's just enough combat tactics to be useful to a new DM without overwhelming or talking down to him. More experienced DM's don't really need this, so more info would have just eaten more of those precious 320 pages.

As for the racial traits, that's kind of irrelevant to me. I am not warm to the idea of monsters as PCs. I think there is a difference between listing a level adjustment (suitable for defining the ECL of cohorts and such) and providing the full "XXX as Characters" info. Some monsters, I reason, are ok as cohorts but not as characters.

You'll need the level adjustment in order to determine how long it takes a cohort-creature to gain a level of advancement by character class. The aranea, for example, with a +4 level adjustment, is going to need 5th level XP to gain its 1st level of sorcerer (or what have ya).

Again, this isn't terribly important to me.

4. Templates aren't in a seperate section but in the main body of the text.

I guess I prefer this, actually. Not sure why-- I value alphabetization in a monster book, I think.

5.For the MM, Feats and one skill are at the back of the book. Some are simple like IMproved Natural Armor where you get a +1 bonus to AC while others like Empower Spell Like Ability will quickly even the meta-magic odds.

Cool, huh?

6. When listing monsters by CR, where is the page #? Not there.

Nor necessary, as the monsters are alphabetized. That table is already a pretty tight layout, packed into two pages. I'm not sure I'd sacrifice the extra room for the page numbers. Plus I'd rather be able to scan down the single row of numbers provided for just the CR's.

7. There is some great new art. The giants, demons, and devils all have some new illustrations in there.

Cool, huh?

8. The Level Equivilence is not the same as the CR and every time I saw it, it was higher. i.e. a CR of +2 from a template wasn't a +2 to Level but maybe a +3 or +4.

CR will almost always be lower, because the "stage time" of a monster is not the same as the "stage time" of a character, and some abilities improve in effectiveness the more often they are seen. The ability to, say, Spider Climb at will (as a top of the head example), isn't terribly impactful to the CR of a monster, but it may have a significant impact to a player character.

9. Humanoids when listed, all have a class, usually warrior one.

Is that a complaint? Can't tell. I'll clip the praise from here on out.

10. Some creatures, instead of a level adjustment, have a note like Improved Familiar (quasit/imp) or cohort (mephits).

See above.

14.Racial Traits (I consider racial traits only valid if they have stat modifiers and may have missed some): Azer, bugbears, centaurs, doppelgangers, dwarves, elf, gargoyles, janni, hill giants, stone giants, githyanki, githzerai, gnolls, gnomes, goblins, grimlock, halfling, hobgoblin, kobold,s kuo-toa, lizard folk, mind flayers, minotaurs, ogre, ogre magi, orc, rakshasas, satyrs, troglodyte, and Yuan Ti Purebloods.

The "XXX as Characters" section is very nice, breaking down everything you get for that "+X level adjustment": hit die by hit die, feat by feat, and skill point by skill point. It's cool. Would more be better? Of course.

15. Tactics: Balor, Pit Fiend, Mind Flayer, Titan. I must've missed some but there weren't many listings.

More is nice, but more than zero is better than 3.0, right?

Joe actually missed my favorite bits: the d20-Modern-esque updates to the statblock (base attack, full attack, and grapple), and the brief introductory description. This part is just brilliant for new DMs or for DM's who would rather describe a monster than just say, "You encounter a mind flayer." Yeah, I know, in a couple months time, the players will have even these descriptions memorized to the point where you might as well just name the creature outright, but it's still a nice touch if you ask me.

Wulf
 


4. Templates aren't in a seperate section but in the main body of the text.

I'm neutral on this one.

5.For the MM, Feats and one skill are at the back of the book. Some are simple like Improved Natural Armor where you get a +1 bonus to AC while others like Empower Spell Like Ability will quickly even the meta-magic odds.

Good.

6. When listing monsters by CR, where is the page #? Not there.

:(

7. There is some great new art. The giants, demons, and devils all have some new illustrations in there.

I'm glad all the fiends are getting art.

8. The Level Equivilence is not the same as the CR and every time I saw it, it was higher. i.e. a CR of +2 from a template wasn't a +2 to Level but maybe a +3 or +4.

It's supposed to work that way.

9. Humanoids when listed, all have a class, usually warrior one.

Even bugbears?

10. Some creatures, instead of a level adjustment, have a note like Improved Familiar (quasit/imp) or cohert (mephits).

See the reply to point 8.

11. Lot of specialty creatures, usually a more powerful version of the mosnters in question. Take the Nessian Warhound, one of the devil prince's own hell hounds or the harpy archer, a 7th level harpy fighter.

Is the Nessian Warhound just an advanced hell hound? Or does it have special abilities?

15. Tactics: Balor, Pit Fiend, Mind Flayer, Titan. I must've missed some but there weren't many listings.

If the aboleth doesn't have a tactics section I'm going to petition for a tactics web article at WotC. I suspect that Andy Collins' mailbag will be too full of "how do I convert [x] PrC to 3.5" to be able to answer all the tactics letter, however.

PS tell me about dragons. Did they have a full-statted-out dragon or two? With spells and tactics?
 

Darn it! Prior to reading this thread I had just decided I was going to save some money and not buy the 3.5 MM (immediately) and just rely on the SRD and my 3e MM. Now I want it.
 

Hmmm, last thing I read MM was switching to a 1 page per monster format. Too bad they backed down from that, in my opinion that was one of the best parts of 2nd Oh well, still going to order it, but some of the joy is gone... :(

The Auld Grump
 

Wulf Ratbane said:

2. Monster Manual is still piss poor in terms of layout and making the book readable. Very much the same book in terms of layout and style.


I never really had a problem with the art in the first place. That's a wash for me.

I will admit, one monster per page is such a no brainer, and WOTC should be the publisher most able to accomodate the added cost this would incur. I agree with Joe on this one.

Do stat blocks still occasionally spill over from one page to the next, or is more like FF where at least the stats (and whenever possible the descriptions of the abilities too) are always all visible at the same time? I found FF a significant step up despite looking much the same at first glance.
 

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