Breaking the Class Lineup rules

[takyris]

So I'm trying to make a new magic system -- basically, something where characters get fewer spells, but the spells are more flexible. A Kineticist class, for example, would get one "spell" that let him move objects, and it would scale in power and range, costing the equivalent of more points as he used more power to move a larger object or move a smaller object faster or do something complicated like use an object as a weapon.

I'm actually trying to avoid points entirely and just use "Make a (level+Int) check to avoid becoming fatigued or lose a point of Strength" rules -- so someone could do something VERY powerful even at low level, if they didn't mind going unconscious immediately afterward. But that's another story.

What I'm wondering is how to handle the class. I don't want to do the Advanced Class lineup -- I don't want to force people into specific spell categories. Instead, I'd like it to look more like a Basic Class, in terms of talent trees and such. For example, for my Kineticist (a wizard specializing in telekinesis and other kinds of motion):

Moving Stuff Talent Tree:

Move Object: Duh.
Wield Object: Pre-req -- Move Object. (Use object as weapon)
Kinetic Shield: Pre-req -- Move Object (Bullets or blows are knocked aside as you receive a Deflection bonus to Defense)

Damaging Stuff Talent Tree:

Kinetic Blast: Pre-req, Move Object -- You make a ranged touch attack and knock back a target as though making a Bull Rush, and they might take a piffling amount of damage.

Tear: Pre-req, Kinetic Blast -- You damage one person, who you have to hit with a Ranged touch, and they get a Fort Save for half.

Cone of Force: Pre-req, Kinetic Blast -- Either of your Damaging Stuff abilities can ge used as a cone rather than as an individual attack, effecting a bunch of people.

Boosting Talent Tree:

Steadying Amplification: Pre-req, Move Object -- you give yourself a bonus on Jump checks, Balance Checks, Climb Checks, and Tumble Checks.

Internal Daming Field: Pre-req, Steadying Amplification -- you give yourself a bonus to Fortitude saves, and you gain Hardness.

Offensive Amplification: Pre-req, Steadying Amp -- you give yourself an enhancement bonus to Strength or Dexterity.

Anyways, that's the overview. So you can see that I want it to be flexible. Some folks might want to become the masters of moving things, while others might want to buff themselves with internal telekinesis, and others might want to fling around bolts of kinetic force at targets. How should I construct this class?

Option One:

As a basic class with higher pre-reqs than normal: Have it use the Talent, Bonus Feat, Talent, Bonus feat progression -- I have magical feats in mind, so Bonus feats will actually be helpful.

Bad side: They only get five talents.

Option Two:

As an advanced class: This seems closest to the rules.

Bad side: This forces them into categories, and I'd have to make a different advanced class for each type of Kineticist -- or list these as ordinary spells, which I sort of wanted to avoid.

Option Three:

Use the Advanced Class format with Basic Class Talent Trees: As in, Talent, Talent, Bonus Feat, Talent, Talent, Bonus Feat. This gives a lot of Talents while keeping the flexibility.

Bad side: Might give too many Talents, might be breaking a canonical rule that was put up for a very good reason.

Anyways, thanks for the help -- and if anyone's interested in seeing other classes, I'm currently working on systems for Mindbenders, Elementalists, and Illusionists that follow the same kind of pattern.

-Tacky

 

[Plane Sailing]

Of the mechanisms you describe, I'd go with a new Advanced class, using either option 3 or simply taking the basic class talent/feat/talent level benefits and not worry that the progression doesn't map onto other advanced classes. After all, it is arguably still less flexible than what they have done for the wizard and cleric advanced classes!

Unless you are committed to the idea of talent trees, you could consider other d20 examples of mechanisms that could be usefully used to handle magic casting include:

Call of Cthulhu : attribute loss (and sanity loss if used)
Star Wars: feats which give access to skills for doing "magic"
Wheel of Time: Spell slots, overchanneling for greater effect, scaleable spells.
Sovereign Stone: I know they have a different mechanism, but I've not seen it

Plus there is the Elements of Magic system from Natural 20 Press, which is interesting in its concept of having level 1 to level 9 of every spell in its spell lists.

Other concepts have been described in the house rules board which also look at other ways of handling magic - unlimited casting but long casting time, unlimited casting but take subdual damage when casting spells and others....

If you *do* go with talent trees for this class, perhaps some of the powers ought to have Action Point expenditure used to activate them?

Cheers

 

[takyris]

I hadn't found a way yet to work Action Points into the lineup.

Ideally, I'd like a system that lets someone risk permanent injury or death if it's important enough to generate a ton of power.

The methodology I was thinking of was SOMETHING like:

Let's take "Moving Something"

Basic DC=15

Character makes a "Magic Check" (1d20+class level+Int)

Assumes an object weighing no more than "Normal", which is five pounds per class level. For heavier objects, the character takes a penalty equal to (Actual Weight/Normal Weight):

(Ergo, a 5th level caster can lift 25 pounds normally. Trying to move a 100 lb object means that he takes a 100/25, or -4, penalty)

A magic user can normally move an object 5 ft./level as a standard action. Use the same equation for moving greater distances.

Attended objects must be struck -- use the same roll, with appropriate penalties, to see if the character can yank the weapon out of his opponent's hands.

If the character wishes to lift an item and attack with it, he makes the check with a -2 penalty for attempting swift, targetted, jerky motions -- this check also functions as his attack roll (which means it's unlikely to be very high, unless he puts effort into it). The weapon is considered attended as long as the caster attacks with it. The character can use the weapon to charge, flank, disarm, or other motions, but he always takes a -2 on his roll for attacking with it,

If the character wishes to "grip" an item or person, holding it in place, his roll functions as the Reflex Save DC (for a target), as well as the Strength Check DC or Escape Artist DC for a character who has already been caught.

Maintaining an effect that is already in place gives the caster a +2 bonus on future checks.

Fatigued characters take a -2 penalty.

Exhausted characters take a -4 penalty.

Each round that the character spends studying his target and preparing his action gives him a +1 bonus on his roll, to a maximum of his class level.

Now then.

Here's what I was thinking:

Regardless of whether the roll is being used as a DC or simply to move an object, check the table to see what the final roll is:

0 or lower: Character is rendered unconscious for 1d3 hours and takes 1d6 points of damage to one physical score and one mental score. 1 point of damage to one of these scores is permanent unless repaired through Surgery.
1-5: Character takes 1d6 points of damage to one randomly determined score. The character is stunned for 1d6 rounds and is Exhausted.
6-10: Character must make a Fortitiude Save, DC15, to avoid becoming Exhausted. Success indicates that the character is merely Fatigued. The character is also stunned for 1 round and dazed for 1d3 rounds after the stunning ends.
11-14: Character must make a Fortitude Save, DC15, to avoid becoming Fatigued. The character is dazed for 1 round even on a successful save.
15-19: The character succeeds with no problem.
20+: The character succeeds and gets a +2 bonus on any similar magical activity for the remainder of this encounter.

Note: A spell still succeeds on these really bad rolls -- it just has an absurdly easy DC to avoid and does some damage to the Hero in the process.

So... let's see.

5th level dude with an Int of 16 will have a base check of 1d20+8.

He wants to hold an evil Bad Guy in place (effectively a Hold Person spell).

Bad Guy weighs in at close to 200 pounds.

200 lbs/25 lbs = -8 penalty.

If he just goes for it, there's a good chance he'll do himself some damage, and the bad guy will get a pretty easy save, most likely. The smart thing for the hero to do would be to spend a few rounds muttering to himself and concentrating, until he can get a +5 bonus -- at which point he'll be rolling 1d20+3 -- very little chance of killing himself or anything like that, and the bad guy will have, at the very least, a harder DC.

If he took 10, he'd get a 13 -- not too bad, but he won't be able to hold on, and anyway, this guy looks fast -- a Reflex save of 13 to avoid the attack isn't that tough. The hero might instead try to use his magic to throw the guy off the edge of the nearby cliff, in which case it doesn't matter if our hero is dazed next round...

-Tacky

 

[takyris]

After a few minutes of thought, that looks pretty nasty, now that I think about it. A fifth-level guy ought to be a BIT more powerful than that -- or else I should give them a better progression in terms of BAB or something to make up for it.

Maybe I ought to make many of those -2s into -1s or raise the "Normal" weight allowance?

-Tacky

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Take a look at the magic system in Wheel of Time. Very flexible, but not more powerfull than the Mage or Acolyte. The WotC d20 Modern and WoT boards have a Modern conversion to an advanced class somewhere already.

EDIT: Check this thread: http://boards.wizards.com/community/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=291;t=001653;p= about midway there is a link to the advanced class too. You may need to update some of the weaves to modern equivalents, but right now you have to do that with Mage/Acolyte too.