Broken spells?

[James McMurray]

PCs can expend their spells if necessary too though.

Also, why are magic items worse for spellcasters? Maybe if you use the default NPCs from the DMG, but if you build your own NPCs, they probably wouldn't be carrying around useless gear.

 

[bret]

To clarify: an NPC usually has no reason to conserve their resources. Most GMs will not have them worry about the 'next' battle, since they are not supposed to survive the battle against the PCs.

This leads to the NPCs always having full spells, immediately using potions, always opening with the 'big guns' immediately, and in general not worrying about how to escape or needing to fight another day.

No every GM will play NPCs this way, but if you look in a module most NPCs will be portrayed this way. How many NPC wizards do you have using Dimension Door to get back to their bedroom and Teleport to escape after picking up the emergency bag? Many GMs would have the NPCs use those slots for yet another attack spell.

It is because of this fatalistic viewpoint, where they never worry about tomorrow because they never expect to get there, that makes the balance different.

 

[Quez The Lame]

some days ago i saw a spell called shocking arrow or so. its listed in relics & rituals 2.

shocking arrow is a second level spell and enchants an arrow or bolt to inflict bonus elemental damage (1D6 or 1D8 per level up to 10 dice). sounds nice so far.

BUT: the spell lasts permantent or until the arrow/bolt is fired und uses no material component besides the arrow/bolt.
i'm afraid of the archer with 3 levels wizard who had a month of travel time to improve his arrows....

greets, quez

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I think only the Harm spell is broken. It is more powerful than any spell in the game considering that it allows you to do an amount of damage that far exceeds that of any other damaging spell in the game. It is more powerful than the 9th level Power Word, Kill spell and it only requires a tough attack to hit.

The Harm spell is a DM's worst nightmare. No matter how well a DM sets up an encounter, one hit from a lvl 6 spell followed by another attack ends any encounter. Even if the enemy has 2,000 hit points and is the avatar of a God.

Other than the Harm spell, I think most spells are well-balanced. Some are more powerful than others, but magic is supposed to be powerful.

 

[ruleslawyer]

My apologies in advance for the length of the following post.

plavi, the following are spells with which I have encountered problems in game, along with my suggested fixes. Some general points to keep in mind, though:

A) Spells from third-party supplements tend to be less well playtested and/or heavily errata'd than WotC spells. Likewise, splatbook spells tend to be less well playtested than core book spells. Always check these spells especially carefully before allowing them in your game.

B) Always do a bit of your own hypothetical playtesting before allowing a new spell into your game. Some spells seem overpowered on paper, but aren't necessarily that bad when used.

C) FR spells get a bad rap. There are a few that are overpowered, but the ratio is no worse than for other supplemental materials, and in many cases better.

OK, so my list:

1) Gate. Capable of summoning creatures of a CR far in excess of party level, allowing instantaneous planar transport, and creating the opportunity for the perfect assassination, as James said. Nor, IMHO, do RP solutions provide a perfect fix, since they're both contrived and insufficient to defeat all of gate's abuses. My preferred suggestion is to rule that the creature summoned by the gate spell is completely free-willed and under no obligation to serve the caster. Yup, you read that right. A smart caster will gate in a being who's likely to assist him, or one that can be coerced into doing so. You may want to impose an xp cost instead of, or in addition to, this measure.

2) Polymorph other. Even errata'd (see Tome & Blood), this spell is still too good, since it's both an insta-kill spell and tremendously powerful buffing spell. I'd either set arbitrary caps on natural AC and ability score bonuses possible from the spell, raise the spell level to 6th, or require a Will save every hour to avoid assuming the mental characteristics and personality of the assumed form, in grand old 1e/2e tradition.

3) Haste. I don't like this spell's ability to outperform the Quicken Spell feat by allowing two spellcasting actions per round. I'd grant a bonus move (or MEA), rather than a partial action, from this spell, or bump it to 5th level.

4) Harm. Actually, I think this spell is fine unless ways exist in the campaign to cast it from range (Reach Spell feat, hierophant (FR)'s divine reach ability). If these ways exist, stick a Will partial save on it; a successful save means that the target loses half its current hit points. This protects the giants, barbarians, and other high-hp creatures from instant annihilation.

5) Blindsight (FR). IMHO, the spell should be 4th level, putting it just slightly behind true seeing, with far fewer capabilities and a longer duration.

6) Kiss of the vampire (FR). Bump it to 6th level. Also keep in mind that the rules have been clarified to note that the spell does not grant any of the immunities or resistances of the undead type; the only characteristics of an undead creature that the caster gains are vulnerability to turning and cure spells (and of course sunlight), and the ability to be healed by inflict spells.

7) Geas/quest. A save is an easy way to balance this.

8) Simulacrum. Ick. To be honest, I can't think of a way to balance this spell. Suggestions from the gallery?

9) Divine power. Actually, this one isn't that bad power-wise, but I hate the idea of a spell that grants BAB. I exclude this one entirely IMC.

10) Miasma (MotW). Gone, bye bye. I can't think of a good way to fix this one, and it's an insta-kill to anyone who doesn't have the ability to cast a silent dispel magic, unless you use the reinterpretation suggested by kreynolds (which is not a literal reading of the spell's effects by any means, IMHO).

11) Telekinesis. The "thrown objects" problem. The house rule I use IMC is that the spell can throw no more than 1 weapon-like object per caster level.

12) Planar ally spells. These spells are capable of summoning allies far more powerful than the caster (using a 6th-level spell to summon a planetar or balor is pretty absurd, IMHO). I'd tie the spell's effects to CR, and cap lesser planar ally at CR 7, planar ally at CR 11, and greater planar ally at CR 15.

IMX, shield, Mord's disjunction, shapechange, feeblemind, etc are all quite balanced. YMMV, however; I'd talk to your players about reserving the right to house-rule or ditch entirely certain spells if they prove a problem.

 

[Stalker0]

12) Planar ally spells. These spells are capable of summoning allies far more powerful than the caster (using a 6th-level spell to summon a planetar or balor is pretty absurd, IMHO). I'd tie the spell's effects to CR, and cap lesser planar ally at CR 7, planar ally at CR 11, and greater planar ally at CR 15.

I wouldn't call these a problem, since the DM has a built in counter to it right in the spell. Its the same as wish, it often times allows you a great amount of power but at a high price set by the DM. Sure I could get that Balor, but think of what I'm going to have to do to get his help!!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

How many NPC wizards do you have using Dimension Door to get back to their bedroom and Teleport to escape after picking up the emergency bag? Many GMs would have the NPCs use those slots for yet another attack spell.

It is because of this fatalistic viewpoint, where they never worry about tomorrow because they never expect to get there, that makes the balance different.

Bret, I agreed with your post except for these points. My wizards always have an escape plan, usually one or two Teleport spells. (The second in case the first is interrupted) and often a Silent Dispel Magic.

However, in terms of blowing away all their resources in one sitting - yes, it's true they can and will do this. Even if the wizard plays like a PC (eg hoard those potions for the next battle) they have no reason to hoard their spells. As long as they Teleport to a safe place it doesn't matter if they have virtually no spells.

As for wizard magic items being worse: take a look at a wand. In most cases the wand will have a lower save DC than anything the wizard could cast himself. A Wand of Fireball is nice (50 Fireballs, can use 3rd-level slots for something else) but with a save DC of 14 the party has little trouble with it. It's isn't possible for the wizard to use his own Int bonus (perhaps backed up by a Headband of Intellect) to boost the wand's power.

On the other hand, take a look at the fighter's items. Belt of Giant Strength (bonus to hit and damage), Magical Sword (bonus to hit and damage), etc. Those items are, effectively, stacking with each other and with the fighter's Strength score.

An NPC wizard will likely have lower AC and saving throws than a PC wizard. Boosting the AC is easy, however - cast Mislead, Mirror Image, Displacement or anything that boosts your defenses - they will have a bigger effect on the wizard's defenses than his magic items. Sure, a Ring of Fire Resistance 30 is cool, but it is no match for Protection from Energy.

Of course, the BBEG's NPC disadvantage starts to fade when he gets hit by Dispel Magic, but if he readies a Time Stop or some other combat-breaking spell, it's game over.

PCs can expend their spells if necessary too though.

True, but they won't.

There are usually two ways of fighting a BBEG.

1) It's the first fight of the morning. If the PC wastes his spells, then he will die in the next couple of encounters.

The PCs can't always "call it a day" either.

2) The fighters had to run the gauntlet, either marching up the main hall and wasting resources against many lower CR opponents, or they took the secret passage with alll of it's traps. By the time they get to the BBEG (who is trying to run out of another secret passage) they have used up a lot of resources, and they have to fight the BBEG and his bodyguards. This means that the PC cannot cast as many spells in that combat if it is drawn out for any length of time, assuming the PC spellcaster is the same level as the NPC spellcaster.

 

[Berk]

It's isn't possible for the wizard to use his own Int bonus (perhaps backed up by a Headband of Intellect) to boost the wand's power.

You never concider your int bonus when creating magic items. DC for magic items are always the lowest they can be dependent on spell level and the minimum intelligence score required to cast that spell. Hence a 3rd level spell's DC from a magic item would be 10+3(3rd level spell)+1(13 intelligence to cast 3rd level spells)=14

 

[James McMurray]

To clarify: an NPC usually has no reason to conserve their resources. Most GMs will not have them worry about the 'next' battle, since they are not supposed to survive the battle against the PCs.

This leads to the NPCs always having full spells, immediately using potions, always opening with the 'big guns' immediately, and in general not worrying about how to escape or needing to fight another day.

No every GM will play NPCs this way, but if you look in a module most NPCs will be portrayed this way. How many NPC wizards do you have using Dimension Door to get back to their bedroom and Teleport to escape after picking up the emergency bag? Many GMs would have the NPCs use those slots for yet another attack spell.

It is because of this fatalistic viewpoint, where they never worry about tomorrow because they never expect to get there, that makes the balance different.

That's a DM problem though. When I run NPCs, they want to survive first, and kill the PCs second. That means that Dimensional Anchor is a favorite spell for my PCs, because they know without it they'll have to track the bastard down again.

 

[James McMurray]

You never concider your int bonus when creating magic items. DC for magic items are always the lowest they can be dependent on spell level and the minimum intelligence score required to cast that spell. Hence a 3rd level spell's DC from a magic item would be 10+3(3rd level spell)+1(13 intelligence to cast 3rd level spells)=14

There is a (non-Epic) feat in the ELH that remedies this. Also, you can get wands that allow no save, such as Enervation.