Bronze Weapons

[Stormborn]

fascinating replies, especially the stuff on arsenic bronze and after, thanks!

I'm wondering if anyone's done something like have an old cache of bronze weapons discovered, to be sold as antiques?

Not bronze weapons specifically, but I have included antique weapons as treasure, things that were subpar to the PCs weapons overall but still valuable.

I would have the PCs make an Appraise check to decide that the weapons had value beyond scrap and greater than other things of similar size/weight that they might want to carry out instead.

Once back in civilization they might make a Gather Info to find out who might buy the things, or you could sub a Bardic Knowledge or Know(nobility) if nobles are the only ones who have the funds to do so. If the items have a special providence let the PCs find that out or find someone who can tell them. A bronze sword wielded by a warrior is one thing, a bronze sword wielded by a member of the famous Red Legion's 12th Column is another, and a Sol's Needle wielded by Arcus Pell Renowned Captain of the 12th Column is yet another. For a mundane weapon with no story say the weapons are worth x10 their modern equivalent, for a storied weapon x20, if a weapon can be confirmed as belonging to a specific historic figure x100 or more.

You might also decided that while the weapons aren't magical (and if they are the PCs are unlikely to just sell them as antiques since the magical properties might negate any weaknesses) you could determine that they do "take" magical properties better than modern materials due to a special mastercrafting technique now lost. You could say that using one of these weapons reduces the XP cost to enchant as magical by 25%. That would increase their value by about +50%.

 

[werk]

Not bronze weapons specifically, but I have included antique weapons as treasure, things that were subpar to the PCs weapons overall but still valuable.

If they are magical, at all, that adds a good bit to the hardness and hitpoints.

 

[Umbran]

I can accept that, and also that there might be other excellent reasons for using bronze over steel (availability, expense, etc.) but how does this "hard bronze" stack up to steel in terms of ductility, brittleness, and toughness?

These days, you can almost always find a steel that is superior to a bronze for any given application, but that's with modern equipment and processes. With Iron Age processes, you may well have had bronzes that were superior to iron or the available steel.

As noted by others, bronze fell out of favor due to scarcity of certain required materials, not because the metal was not suited to the task. In game terms, you may decide that steel and bronze are about equivalent in terms of mechanical effect on the weapons.

Or, you can get special, and start thinking nabout how mithril-steel and mithril-bronze differ

 

[deltadave]

I can accept that, and also that there might be other excellent reasons for using bronze over steel (availability, expense, etc.) but how does this "hard bronze" stack up to steel in terms of ductility, brittleness, and toughness?

In the real world bronze is almost twice as heavy for the same strength and more prone to bending. Bronze also does not hold an edge at all. The poisoning effect you heard about is not from getting hit by the weapon but rather from smelting the bronze using arsenic. Bronze poisoning from a weapon has the same symptoms as steel poisoning - large gaping wounds accompanied by massive blood loss.

 

[Tonguez]

I'm wondering if anyone's done something like have an old cache of bronze weapons discovered, to be sold as antiques?

I once had the PCs in a gladiators tomb and they came across a set consisting of bronze helmet, gauntlet and greaves, a bronze sword, crystal skulls and gold jewlery. They took the gold, the sword and a skull as a curio but left the armour not even bothering to detect for magic. In fact the most valuable item in the crypt were the magical greaves which granted bonuses to AC and increased speed

 

[Voadam]

In my game the party came across a demon temple that had been sealed away for thousands of years in a time distortion plane. The dead cultists inside had red metal weapons according to the module but no description beyond the odd color. So after asking some questions here somebody mentioned arsenic bronze. I googled the term and the ancient smithing practices that were quite dangerous fit in with an ancient demon cult from an earlier time period very well.

With the party cleric being a dwarf from a smith family who had worshipped a smith god then switched to the worship of a lore god while keeping the metal domain the arsenic bronze info came out in game in a cool way as he checked out the blades.

 

[Pbartender]

The poisoning effect you heard about is not from getting hit by the weapon but rather from smelting the bronze using arsenic.

Yep... It's the nasty fumes coming off the molten pot of bronze and arsenic that'll get you.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Way back, the setting search entry I sent in to WotC was an early Iron Age thing and some cultures used bronze weapons. Wonder where the documents I compiled on that got off to.

I've always thought it would be fun to run an early ages fantasy campaign. A little heavier on the mythology. Olde School, as it were.

--fje

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

NOt sure where I got it from, but I have an HTML page saved in my HR folder that has variatn rules for primitive weapons, and some mundance weapon enhancement rules ala Black Company as well.. this is what it has on Bronze weapons:

Bronze

Bronze is a soft metal that is also expensive due to the rarity of one of its main components: tin. However, it doesn’t require any advanced metal technology and was, thus, very common throughout ancient times. Bronze spear point and arrowheads are as good as their iron counterparts and were used long after bronze swords and knifes were relegated to history. Bronze bladed weapons tended to be thick and weighted more towards the point than the hilt.

Piercing and Mass weapons (includes all spears, maces, hammers, warhammers, and axes, but not shortswords)

Cost: +1/10 normal cost
Damage: Same
Critical: Same
Range Increment: Same
Weight: Same
Type: Same
Hardness: 5
Hit Points (small, medium-sized, large): 2, 5, 10

Bladed weapons (includes all swords and knives)

Cost: +1/10 normal cost
Damage: Same
Critical: Same
Range Increment: Same
Weight: Same
Type: Same
Hardness: 9
Hit Points (small, medium-sized, large): 2, 5, 10

Special: A bronze blade is fragile. A natural roll of 1 indicates that the blade has shattered and is now useless.

 

[Nyeshet]

I seem to recall that it was not uncommon for warriors in the field to use their helmet as a bowl - including as a cup for holding water, etc. If arsenic bronze was used, perhaps over time they might have developed some symptoms from this?

Also, I seem to recall that bronze weapons relied more on points than edges due to bronze not holding an edge well. Also, they were more likely to break if used in a hacking manner than in a thrusting manner - another reason bronze was used more for piercing weapons than for slashing weapons. Now that I think about it, I think that may be part of the reason axes and spears (and maces) were more common than swords - and most of them were also of the short sword or dagger piercing variety rather than the more slashing long sword variety.


Lastly, I am curious. What combinations of alloys are needed to make a bronze that is as hard as steel?