Bucklers for monks?

[Setne]

I have a player with a monk. He wants to take a masterwork buckler. Here's his reasoning:

1) masterwork eliminates the -1 check penalty, so there is no non-proficiency penalty
2) the character generator from WoTC lets you do it
3) it only says monks suffer penalties for armor, but for other classes it mentions shields
4) with the masterwork buckler, all he faces is the -1 penalty if he attacks with that arm.

I see it as a violation of the intent and description, because a monk needs "freedom of movement" to get all his benefits, and bucklers state they are an odd weight on the arm (thus the penalty), but there are no clear-cut rules that I could find to support either position. Right now we're working on the "DM says so" rule, but I was wondering if anyone could offer any guidance?

 

[mikebr99]

check the FAQ.. there is stuff in there about monks using shields in general... It isn't allowed.

 

[CRGreathouse]

1) masterwork eliminates the -1 check penalty, so there is no non-proficiency penalty
2) the character generator from WoTC lets you do it
3) it only says monks suffer penalties for armor, but for other classes it mentions shields
4) with the masterwork buckler, all he faces is the -1 penalty if he attacks with that arm.

1. There are no armor check penalties, so he won't get an attack penalty. He'll still lose abilities.
2. The CharGen is garbage. Tell him it won't let characters wield magic weapons, either.
3. All classes suffer penalties for wearing armors they're not proficient with. This includes shields for all classes - shields are a subset of armor.
4. And a loss of abilities.

there are no clear-cut rules that I could find to support either position.

Yes, there are. He gains the AC bonus (assuming he doesn't attack with the arm it's on), loses his monk (class+Wis) bonus to AC, loses his UBAB, and all his spell-like monk abilities gain arcane failure.

 

[Valicor]

What about using a Magical Mithral Buvckler?

 

[Artoomis]

Accoring to the Sage and the FAQ, wearing a shield is the same as wearing armor for a monk.

I disagree. The language in the monk class (and others) pretty clearly differentiates between a shield and other armor.

I'd allow it.

 

[Tiberius]

Accoring to the Sage and the FAQ, wearing a shield is the same as wearing armor for a monk.

I disagree. The language in the monk class (and others) pretty clearly differentiates between a shield and other armor.

I'd allow it.

Amazingly enough, I agree with the Sage on this one. A shield provides an armor bonus. Monk special abilities are negated when they wear armor. QED.

-Tiberius

 

[Oni]

Amazingly enough, I agree with the Sage on this one. A shield provides an armor bonus. Monk special abilities are negated when they wear armor. QED.

-Tiberius

Don't Bracers of defense, and the spell Mage Armor, provide an armor bonus as well? Do they negate monk abilities? (just playing devils advocate, I really don't believe that it was intended for monks to be able to use shields, it doesn't fit the flavor of the class)

 

[mikebr99]

Don't Bracers of defense, and the spell Mage Armor, provide an armor bonus as well? Do they negate monk abilities? (just playing devils advocate, I really don't believe that it was intended for monks to be able to use shields, it doesn't fit the flavor of the class)

Yes... both provide an 'armour' bonus.

 

[Artoomis]

Amazingly enough, I agree with the Sage on this one. A shield provides an armor bonus. Monk special abilities are negated when they wear armor. QED.

-Tiberius

No, other things privde an armor bonus that don't penlyze the monk at all.

The real rules problem is that shields both are and are not armor, it depends on where you are reading in the PHB. In some places "armor" is clearly meant to include shields, in others it is clear not meant to include shields.

Using the PHB only, I came to the conclusion that monks should be allowed to use shields, but would suffer armor check penalties to their abilities (the last part is there to stay within the pretty clear intent in the monk class - not doing so would be unreasonable).

I think that was was meant to happen as well. After all, you can look to many historical monks and see the use of shields. There is even a demonstration team from Tibet or somewhere that puts on a show using both weapons and unarmed - and they use shields in the show. It just seems like they should be allowed, but the armor penalties to armor should apply to prevent silly things like a monk with a tower shield.

As to actual evidence of intent, look to teh monk calss descritpion itself:

When wearing armor, a monk loses her AC bonus for Wisdom, AC bonus for class and level, favorable multiple unarmed attacks per round, and heightened movement. Furthermore, her special abilities all face the arcane spell failure chance that the armor type normally imposes.

The same section in other classes includes a statment like:

...light armor, medium armor, and shields.

It seems that this is a case where shields are called out specifcally as different from armor.

We've had this discussion before, of course, and some will agree with me, and some not. That's okay. Just realize that:

The rules can be used to support either position

and

The Sage feels that shields = armor in this case,

and make your decision.

It may also help to realize that the author of "Power Plays," I think they were called, mentioned the especially bucklers like we are discussing here with no armor check penalty.

Personally, I like it. The monk has a heck of a time with armor class as it is, the couple of points he gets from the buckler is surely not going to break your game.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

The monk has a heck of a time with armor class as it is, the couple of points he gets from the buckler is surely not going to break your game.

Heh, have you played in a group with a monk? Monks have one of the highest AC's among classes after the first few levels. You'll notice monkas almost always play a part in AC smackdowns.

And no, I wouldn't allow it. Shields are armor. As a martial arts fan i'd be flexible on allowed weapons, but I have never seen a movie where a monk wields a shield.