Build advice for epic rogue/wizard

[preacher]

Hi all, our DM has recently announced that we'll be taking the campaign into epic levels. I've never played epic rules before, and never suspected that I'd need to think about them.

My character is currently Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Maggerspell Mage 10. He's always had a bit of an identity problem - to start off with, we had no arcane caster or rogue in the campaign, and I intended to try and be both (I was new to 3.5 as well then). Then someone started playing a Rogue, so I switched to concentrating on Wizard. Then the Rogue left, and I was both again, and then a Sorcerer joined the party. We also suffer from a lot of variety on which players can make each session, and sometimes I'm secondary melee. So my character is far from optimised, and I've switched his principle focus several times, but he's still fun to play.

Now I have just two levels left to fill before epic rules come into play. I'm only at spell-casting level 14 (i.e. 7th level spells), but as I understand it extra Wizard or DSM levels taken after character level 20 will still increase my spells per day till I hit caster level 20. Is that correct?

However as a DSM I am also sometimes the party's secondary melee character, depending on who else turns up each week. And I'm wondering if I should grab as much BAB as I can before I hit epic progression rules. Rogue 4 gives +1 BAB and Uncanny Dodge, so is tempting. Wizard 6 gives +1 BAB as well as the usual increase in spell-casting.

I can't find any other Prestige Classes that really mesh very well thematically with the character. Unseen Seer would give +1d6 Sneak Attack, but I don't want the Divination focus that comes with later levels, and a 1 level dip into a PrC when I have no intention of taking more seems a bit cheesy. Arcane Trickster is a possibility, I guess, but so far I've been a TWF sneak-attacker, and AT seems more suited to ray sneak attacks.

Also, at level 21+, I can't decide whether to pile on PrC levels or just take more DSM levels and get the extra feats. Any thoughts on whether DSM would get 1 feat/3 levels, the same as Wizard, or 1 feat/4 levels, the same as a Rogue? Or has anyone seen an epic progression for DSM anywhere?

I've even got this half-formed idea of taking some Swordsage levels, to get Island of Blades (for easier Sneak Attacks), and some of the other ToB goodness. But these might well be wasted on a low(ish) BAB character.

Thanks in advance for any ideas or advice.

 

[FEADIN]

You can only go beyond 10th level in a PrC if you're Epic, you're stuck with your 10 DSM levels until that, the best way I think is to improve your spells and caster level, Arcane Trickster seems a good way or take 2 levels of wizard and don't forget Practiced spellcaster....
Some Epic feats require that you'll be able to cast spells of the maximum level in your class, try to reach 9th level spells as soon as possible.
Your caster level will always improve, even beyond 20th if you have enough levels in casting class, it's your spells known and spells per day which stop at 20th.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Uncanny Dodge is a great thing to have, so I would probably go Rogue 4. If you haven't taken Rogue levels in a while, it also means you can pour all those skill points into maxing one or two key Rogue skills you've let lag. They'll always have a class skill cap on ranks (char level +3), but if said skill isn't on your current class's skill list, you have to pay the cc amount. So if there are any skills like this, where the last time you took rogue, your max ranks allowed were only like 10, definitely consider that. Maybe on Use Magic Device, I don't know your character's layout.

What is your current BAB? Because you do cease to gain it after level 20 (instead getting an epic bonus), and if you're at a fringe point between getting another iterative attack or not, I would advise making sure you pick up that last iterative. Rogue 3 = +2, Wiz 5 = +2, so... either BAB +9 or BAB +11 depending on whether DSM is poor or medium BAB. If your current BAB is +9, ABSOLUTELY make sure you get +2 BAB those last two pre-epic levels, an attack is at stake! If it's +11, don't go out of your way for it.

So, I'd say go Rogue 1 / Wizard 1 for BAB and simplicity of build if you have BAB +9 right now. If not, I'd recommend any full caster prestige class over wizard that you qualify for, because all Wiz 6 gives is +1 CL, and you can afford a BAB hit. I'd still go with a level in Rogue myself, because Uncanny Dodge is just so nice to have, but I know most people consider unnecessary loss of caster levels to be heresy, so maybe just do 2 levels in x prestige class. Which would likely be arcane trickster or unseen seer, as you mentioned.

 

[preacher]

Some Epic feats require that you'll be able to cast spells of the maximum level in your class, try to reach 9th level spells as soon as possible.

I hadn't spotted that, thanks. I'll look through the epic feats - I've just picked up the Epic Handbook, and had previously been relying on the DMG, where it didn't seem to matter when I picked up 9th level spells. Are there any in particular that you had in mind?

If you haven't taken Rogue levels in a while, it also means you can pour all those skill points into maxing one or two key Rogue skills you've let lag.

The DM houseruled a few extra class skills into DSM, as by the time I went prestige I was the only rogue again, but there are certainly some skills I need to catch up on. I hadn't thought of that, thanks.

What is your current BAB?

DSM has decent BAB progression, so it's currently +11, and there are no extra iterative attacks at stake. But I'd previously thought I'd be able to boost attack bonuses by taking classes with better BAB progression later on, and noticed that all classes gain epic bonus at the same rate. I have TWF and ITWF, but usually fail on the last attacks without Wraithstrike. My full attack bonus isn't that great, but it's probably better to rely on buffs and items to get that up than try to do it through focussing on BAB for the last non-epic few levels.

I'd still go with a level in Rogue myself, because Uncanny Dodge is just so nice to have, but I know most people consider unnecessary loss of caster levels to be heresy, so maybe just do 2 levels in x prestige class. Which would likely be arcane trickster or unseen seer, as you mentioned.

I have Practised Spellcaster, so caster level = character level right now. I know that it's supposed to be a bad idea to lose caster levels, but I'm not sure how much difference it'll make in epic play. At level 25, for example, will I care that I'm caster level 24?

The DM has some crazy houserules that allow extrremely high stats, so my DEX provides a big chunk of my AC. And it's just so galling to be on the receiving end of sneak attacks. Uncanny Dodge is so tempting.

Any thoughts on what to do post-20 - PrC levels for prestige class abilities, or DSM levels for extra epic feats? I assume that if I take a PrC with class abilities, I don't get the bonus epic feats at the same rate I would for a class with no epic class abilities. And I can't see any DSM abilities that would scale up, except Sneak Attack, so assume I'd get some bonus feats.