Build Point System: How broken can we get?

[Marflarius]

This thread is being created to pick up the discussion that originated in the Vow of Poverty thread without spamming it with unnecesarry non thread related information!

The current build point system is as follows:

Skills: 1 point per 4 skill points
Feats: 3 points for tier 1 (basic feats) 5 points for tier 2 (req's 2-3) and 7 points for tier 3 (req's 4+)
HD Upgrade:

2 points - d8
3 points - d10
4 points - d12
5 points - d20
5 points per +10 to HD over 20 (so from 1d20 to 1d20 + 1d10 would be 5 points)

These points DO stack so if we start at a base D6 HD per level, and want to upgrade to a d20, it would cost 14 points. Keeping in mind that this is NOT permanent and that if you wish to upgrade to a d20 again the next level, it will cost you an extra 14 points.

Class Abilities/Spell progression: 50 points


At each level also, the starting 'shell of a character' you're given basically the Rogue's class progression, you can spend 3 points at each level to increase your bab by +1, and at every stat bump you can spend an additional 10 points to get another +1 to a stat, also we're allowed races/templates that cost up to LA 2 and may spend 15 points per LA to remove it (so basically if you had an LA 2 you would start at level 3, instead of the base 5 we're creating the characters at, but if you spend 30 points, you can remove the LA but still retain the bonuses)

Also we may spend 3 points at each level to raise a specific save by +1 OR we can spend 5 points to raiseall the saves by +1

There is a difference when paying for the class abilities and spell progression for a character, for example, the 50 points spent towards spell progression will give you EACH spell under a spellcasters list of spells for every level that you are allowed up to (so you can spend 50 points, and get all spells in a Wizard spell list so long as you meet the required level)

We start with 150 points at level 1, and roll the character up to level 5, gaining 10 points per level, so essentially have 190 build points to spend, and we start off with 10k gold*

Also note that: Each racestill get their normal bonuses (Humans still retain the bonuses to skill points, the extra feat at level 1, etc.) and ifyou DO take flaws that grant bonus feats, you will be allowed to take any feat that you are qualified to take already. (No, unfortunately we can't take a flaw and get epic weapon focus at level 1)

 

[kitcik]

Bad news: I am not the top caster-builder, by far. Dandu or others I am sure will comment when they are awake.

Good news: I know broken when I see it.

This is basically like gestalt and if you forgo some bells and whistles you could even triple gestalt.

100 points: full wizard and cleric spellcasting

Should he buy another class' abilities? I mean, for 50 he could get the full abilities of a non-caster progression class or PrC with abilities that are broken with a dual full caster. Maybe like Warblade - take defensive stuff like Iron Heart Surge and build towards White Raven Tactics? Anyway, someone will think of the most broken combo.

Enough skill points to keep Concentration and Spellcraft maxed, with some knowledges thrown in.

All the good metamagic feats, eventually taking Arcane Thesis multiple times for extreme brokenness.

Be an anthropomorphic bat (Savage Species).

Max Int & Wis, some Con, dump Dex, Str, Cha?

Bump saves as you can (this is one reason not to add another class' abilities - you would have plenty to spend on saves each level.

Anyway, that is a first pass. This will be an insane character.
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[Marflarius]

Hmm, I'm nothing like the build optimizers around here or the internet but the last build that I was going to essentially create was a wisdomancer type that utilized Wisdom for everything (saves,ab,ac, etc.) and am not too well versed with any of the PrC classes either. . . Although recently I have taken a bit of an interest to Psions and was planning on throwing in the Psion spell progression with that wisdom build too. . .

Lets also keep in mind that we still get the skills bonus at level 1 like all classes do normally.

 

[Marflarius]

I suppose we could at least toss around some ideas for characters though in the mean time while we wait for the master spellcaster dudes to awake from their slumber!

I've always been a fan of rogue types or even rangers depending on what I want to do with my characters, I've had interest in Bards mixed with either spellcaster classes or fighter types (ranged/melee, doesn't matter)

 

[kitcik]

1am for me so sleep as well.

I don't think psion "spells" are as strong as arcane or divine.

Bard is an interesting idea. A bard / wizard would be more complimentary, but I still think full arcane + full divine has to be the most broken. I will check back in the am.

 

[Marflarius]

Sounds good. Thanks Kit.

 

[Marflarius]

Allow me to add in this note: For stat rolls, I currently have: 10 15 15 16 16 16

 

[Jack Simth]

Yes, this is very breakable.

150 points at 1st, 10 points per additional level? That's....

Full Sorcerer casting (or Wizard, or Cleric, or Druid... whichever's your preference, although Charisma stacking is usually easier than Int stacking or Wis stacking): 50 points
Full Hexblade class features: 50 points (Charisma to saves vs. spells & spell likes - the most common save - and Mettle, mostly, although there's also a few other handy abilities there)
Full Monk class features: 50 points (Wis to AC, Evasion, mostly, but there's other stuff that's useful as a passive defense)
That's 150 points at 1st.
10 points a level beyond that:
d10 HD for every level after 1st: 3 points
A very complex bonus feat every level after 1st: 7 points.

... yeah, this is a fairly strong gestalt variant.

 

[FEADIN]

Reminds me of 2nd edition "Skills and Powers" you could build nearly everything with the starting points of a cleric, 120 IIRC, because you didnt have to pick all spells which were listed by "sphere" costing points.

 

[kitcik]

I am still thinking about the build, but in the meantime I had a tangential thought.

1) Level advancement works as normal EXCEPT you don't get any automatic feats (i.e. 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc.).
2) Each level you get 20 build points.
3) Levels:
a) Taking a level in a full caster / Tier 1 class or a PrC that advances casting costs 20 build points.
b) Taking a level in a Tier 2 class costs 15 points (based on JaronK's tiers for now).
c) Taking a level in a Tier 3 class costs 10 points.
d) Taking a level in a lower tier class costs 5 points.
e) To be clear, this is NOT gestalt and you can only take a level for which you have the appropriate XP.
4) Feats are 5 points each.
5) LA buyoff is 10 points per LA.
6) I would think of something to do with excess build points, maybe increasing stats (or maybe you just have to spend them all on feats and LA).

How does that sound?