Building a character is like designing a magic deck...

[molonel]

In terms of min-maxing, one of the things I like about systems like Gurps, Hero, BESM, etc... is that they provide you with almost all of the game rules in one book.

Because God knows, I've NEVER played in a GURPs game where someone brought a more obscure supplement with a rule or option or power they wanted to use for their ubercharacter.

....

 

[Deekin]

I do not want to pay 5.00 to increase the chance of being able to heal!

 

[Joshua Randall]

I feel what increases the situation is that certain feats, skills, etc. are arguably just better than others.

This is inevitable. As soon as you have 2+ of something, one of them is going to be better than the other(s) -- at least in certain situations.

The problem I see with this is that one must totally understand the intricacies of the game in order to realize this.

From what I've read, part of the design of D&D is to appeal to (some) players' desire for system mastery -- gradually to understand more and more of the intricacies of the game.

This is exactly equivalent to MtG, so in that sense, comparing a PC build to a Magic deck is a very good analogy.

 

[Hussar]

I think you're missing my point then. If I build a character in GURPS, there's a lot fewer clearly game-mechanically suboptimal choices to be made, and what dependencies there are tend to be obvious and self-evident. If I build a character in AD&D 1e, I roll the dice, pick a race and a class, and buy my equipment. In no other system that I'm familiar with do you have so many options that are so intricately linked that you have to have so much comprehension of the rules not to build a painfully suboptimal character.

Building an optimal CCG deck or DDM warband is part of a competitive game. I think that building a character for a cooperative roleplaying game shouldn't require such detailed complex hard-to-master system.

The problem with this is the assumption that unless you comprehend the rules, your character will be automatically substandard. This is simply not true. The benefit of balanced rules means that very few options are significantly better than others. A high strength barbarian with power attack isn't exactly rocket science to build and is a perfectly acceptable character.

If we had wobbly mechanics where one choice was vastly superior to all other choices, then I would agree with prosfilaes. However, ignoring broken mechanics, there are very few options in 3e that are "painfully suboptimal".

 

[JoeGKushner]

Because God knows, I've NEVER played in a GURPs game where someone brought a more obscure supplement with a rule or option or power they wanted to use for their ubercharacter.

....

GURPS Compendium I became mandatory at many of my sessions.

GURPS 4th ed seems to have eased that down quite a bit. (That and a reduced schedule.)

However, I maintain that my point is accurate.

I'd be amazed if we didn't see some future supplement give you a way to sell of base attack or saving throws in exchange for a feat or something in the future.

 

[BryonD]

I agree completely with Schmoe's 5th option.

It only takes one player to ruin this.

Have you come up with a game that can't be de-railed by one player? I'd like to see it.

Optimization is the heart and soul of 3 ed. It is what sells books.

I think that is crap.
Optimization certainly exists with D&D, but there are plenty of other games out there that allow more optimization. To call it "the heart and soul" is radically off the mark.

The first thing I look at when I pick up a book is its spells, feat selections and base classes, then I briefly peruse the PrCs. That is how I decide if I am going to buy a book or not. I am sure others are similar in their subjective analysis of purchasing.

Hey, if your attitude detracts from your own fun then you have a problem.

I look at a book and try to figure if it will help me define a fun, engaging gaming environment.
Feats and PrCs are PART of that. But looking for cool feats and PrCs that fit the game I'm loooking for is a long way away from beign hung up on (or even really THINKING about) optimization.

 

[Sadrik]

then you have a problem.

Your right I do! Like I said in the original post I am spending entirely too much time making characters. I am not sure how others make characters but I generally think of a character concept and then try to mish mash the most effective character combo into my concept. For instance my latest character (for an ebberon game) was a 1/2 orc warblade2/transmuter4/jade phoenix mage1. Doesn't sound blatantly powerful on the surface until you throw shocktrooper, powerattack and arcane strike and the host of other crazy abilities on top of that. Even at my level of powergaming, I felt like I was cheating. I could hit for like 100 damage! @ level 7. Not bad. I didn't want my character to be that effective really I just wanted to try some combinations and just make a cool new fighter/magic-user character.

So yeah, my problem is when I play the game I like to have the most effective planned out character I can make. I know I am not alone on this because the three groups I have played with recently have all been this way. One group in particular was more about optimization than story, than roleplaying, or even weenie fights. Rush through to the biggest encounters and lets see what your builds can do. Let me tell you their where some entirely way too broken of characters in that game. My 70 AC was way out done. And that character took so many revisions and my ~300 damage per round if I hit with everything was pretty inconsequential. His touch attacks were so fake.

 

[Hussar]

So your problem is mixing multiple splat books and tossing in PrC's from other settings where the balance is created specifically for that setting.

Perhaps simply scaling back a bit and not perusing the WOTC optimization boards so much might be in order.

I've played with a lot of players over the past few years and yup, you can break the system, but, if you ACTUALLY role play your character and take PrC's and whatnot that fit in the setting rather than whatever you can randomly jam together, then you're gold.

 

[TarionzCousin]

"No, no, no--my character is an angel named Sarah. It's totally different!"

 

[Nifft]

Agree (mildly) and like it (for my NPCs).

For PCs? Who knows... ask a player...

Cheers, -- N