Burn Them All!: Witches, Heretics, and Rebels!

[Particle_Man]

Looks like I am both a Gantroist and a Zhanist. Or at least my characters would be if they knew that they *were* characters.

 

[GreatLemur]

If you aren't using it for something else, Psionics can do quite well for the mechanics, with a flavour change.

Wilders = Witches (the surge, the enervation, all work)

Another option--admittedly, a rather obvious one--would by the Binder class. Contacting supernatural beings and letting them semi-possess you in return for use of their powers? Now that is classic witch territory. Of course, Wizards specializing in necromancy, conjuration, and transmutation are other good possibilities. The Beguiler could be a very appropriate class for some interpretations of the witch archetype, too. Come to think of it, so could the Druid. Warlocks inevitably come to mind, but they're way too blasty to make decent witches, in my opinion.

 

[Celebrim]

Another option--admittedly, a rather obvious one--would by the Binder class. Contacting supernatural beings and letting them semi-possess you in return for use of their powers? Now that is classic witch territory.

In addition to which, most of the vestiges have names, seals, ect. taken from classical European demonology. So yeah, definately classical witch territory. In fact, its the most flat out occult class in the history of D&D.

 

[Pagan priest]

In my campaign world, I have a home brewed pantheon of Gods, with a supreme Mother Goddess at the head, and an evil father God in opposition.

Outside of this, are the druids and their two Gods. The druids in my game are based very loosely on Wicca. They have a triple Goddess and a triple God as well. The Mother, Maiden, Crone representing Good, Neutral, and Evil and the Father, Youth, Beast representing Law, Neutral, and Chaos. Since the Druid Gods are separate from the pantheon, they are viewed as blasphemers and witches, and burned at the stake whenever possible. They also teach a very different origin myth as well.

 

[fusangite]

One of the things that I'm realizing as I've been reading the last several posts of yours like this is just how much more D&D is like the 16th century than it is like the Middle Ages or the ancient world. Generally, most of my campaign worlds are polytheistic and so there are no heresies because I can't find a historical model of polytheists having the idea of heresy in their societies. Witches, I'm similarly off to the periphery. Witch persecutions were an early modern thing so I haven't got into that either. But I'm thinking now that it may be time in the future to do a 16th century style campaign; that's looking like fun to me.

Rebels on the other hand, they interest me. And they usually get away with their rebellions because they are simply the soldiers who are attached to noble houses that lost civil wars. They are often ransomed back if taken as prisoners of war and the noble house to which they belong is usually punished but not deposed.

I’m thinking of developing a new group of witches for a local area in my campaign world.

What will make people think of them as witches as opposed to people with different worship customs? It seems to me that what may make them witches might be their rebellion, rather than any idea of heresy. Perhaps people don't like them and demonize them as witches because the leader of a local uprising is female rather than male.

I’m also thinking of developing a sophisticated group of heretics at a major city, drawn from the ranks of the local church, wandering philosophers, and members of the university faculty….any ideas or suggestions on characters and organization with this?

Is your society monotheistic? If not, you'll need to think really hard about what is making all the churches think of them as bad guys at the same time. My first thought would be that they are monotheists who insist that only their god is real and refuse to participate in any other cult's public festivals and devotions. Jews were not appreciated for this kind of separatist behaviour in the Roman world and were labeled "atheists" (yep -- that's how 'atheist' got into common usage: as an anti-semitic pejorative) as a result.

I think that the monotheism is the kind of thing that would attract philosophers and intellectual elites in a polytheistic society. Indeed, it is for this reason that the Jews were called "a nation of philosophers."

So, I'd go the monotheism route. But they would need a good reason to go the Judean route rather than the normal route monotheists in polytheistic societies go (generally they just see all devotions to other gods as inferior devotions to the big god in which they believe, rather than seeing them as disloyal acts as did the Judeans and Christians). Maybe they believe that their god will only reveal himself to those who cease devotions to his inferior coinstituent parts and dedicate themselves exclusively to the unity.

 

[Celebrim]

"One of the things that I'm realizing as I've been reading the last several posts of yours like this is just how much more D&D is like the 16th century than it is like the Middle Ages or the ancient world. Generally, most of my campaign worlds are polytheistic and so there are no heresies because I can't find a historical model of polytheists having the idea of heresy in their societies. "

As just one noted example, what do you think Socrates was executed for?

What will make people think of them as witches as opposed to people with different worship customs? It seems to me that what may make them witches might be their rebellion, rather than any idea of heresy.

Errr.... I don't see the sharp bright-line distinction between heresy and rebellion that you are making here. Or rather, I do, but I don't think that the cultures that criminalized heresy did. In early modern Europe, the principal reason that heretics were treated poorly boils down to the fact that they were considered enemies of the state. This is the pretty obvious reason why much of the harshest treatment of religious dissenters in European history occured under monarchs who had unified the church and the state under themselves. Religious dissenting views were seen primarily rebellion against the monarch, the state, the church, and the very social fabric.

 

[Imp]

Hmm, ok.

This has nothing to do with intellectual heresies, but sorcerors are persecuted in my homebrew. People think they are demonically possessed. They aren't, but the people can't or won't distinguish them from psionicists, who are demonically possessed.

(In fact, sorcerors are remnants from an earlier age of magic, when magic wasn't studied academically, but rather, talented people were bred to manifest powers.)

Druids are also considered heretics and witches across a swath of the campaign world, though the reaction to them is more of superstitious shunning than actual persecution. (There is a land where they are the ruling class, though, so it evens out.) And paladins in this campaign are all part of a hermetic organization – sort of a cross betweeen the Knights Templar and the Bene Gesserit – whose particular take on lawful goodness, that it is their mission to unite humanity under their just rule, has managed to get them well and persecuted by all sorts of governments. My paladins get to lie, and don't get the shiny mounts.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As just one noted example, what do you think Socrates was executed for?

Corrupting the youth was the charge that Plato said his accusers brought against him. Plato also proposed punishing people who believed that the gods could be bought off and induced to excuse immoral behavior through sacrifice in Laws.

One might also note a number of examples where people were not punished by polytheists for heresy, per se, but rather for refusal to sacrifice or pray to various gods. (Usually the emperor). The biblical story of the the Persian emperor's decree that anyone who did not worship his image should be put to death (and the consequent miraculous rescue of three Jews who refused from death in the fiery furnace) is one example of this. It does not appear to be an isolated example because Jews and Christians were also punished for refusing to sacrifice to the emperor in Rome (mostly after the jewish rebellion in or around 70).

Now, that's not exactly punishment for heresy because those doing the punishment didn't particularly care what the people they punished believed or didn't believe--what was important was that they make the required sacrifices or perform the ritual prayers or worship. Heresy requires a codified system of belief which is not typical of ancient, historical polytheism. I doubt that the distinction was any comfort to the people who were executed, however.

Errr.... I don't see the sharp bright-line distinction between heresy and rebellion that you are making here. Or rather, I do, but I don't think that the cultures that criminalized heresy did. In early modern Europe, the principal reason that heretics were treated poorly boils down to the fact that they were considered enemies of the state. This is the pretty obvious reason why much of the harshest treatment of religious dissenters in European history occured under monarchs who had unified the church and the state under themselves. Religious dissenting views were seen primarily rebellion against the monarch, the state, the church, and the very social fabric.

In fact, some religions were specifically persecuted because of perceived disloyalty. The pacifist mennonite traditions, for instance, were suspect because they refused to fight in support of the state.

 

[Pagan priest]

One of the things that I'm realizing as I've been reading the last several posts of yours like this is just how much more D&D is like the 16th century than it is like the Middle Ages or the ancient world. Generally, most of my campaign worlds are polytheistic and so there are no heresies because I can't find a historical model of polytheists having the idea of heresy in their societies. Witches, I'm similarly off to the periphery. Witch persecutions were an early modern thing so I haven't got into that either. But I'm thinking now that it may be time in the future to do a 16th century style campaign; that's looking like fun to me.

...

True for the most part. Polytheistic societies do tend to be open to allowing people to worship any number of Gods. That was why I created the big difference between my two groups. While most polytheisms would simply ignore a minority group worshiping other Gods, if those other Gods taught a very different explanation for how and why the world came to be the way it is, that could be enough of a reason to have a conflict.

Going back to my campaign's conflict:
The witch/druid faith teaches that there are only the two true Gods, and all the other Divine beings are former mortals that have ascended. In contrast, the Pantheon teaches that the Divine beings are the children of the Head Goddess, and by this group the mortals were created.

Confusing the issue, it is possible for mortals to ascend and join the ranks of the Divine as part of the Pantheon...

It is possible to create situations where a polytheistic religion would declare some group as heretic, but it does require thought on the part of the DM.

 

[Pagan priest]

It does not appear to be an isolated example because Jews and Christians were also punished for refusing to sacrifice to the emperor in Rome (mostly after the jewish rebellion in or around 70).
.

It wasn't so much a sacrifice to the emperor, but to the Genius of Rome, as seen as personified in the Emperor. Genius is refering to the gestalt of the spirits of the ascended dead emperors. In other words, the emperor per se was not Divine, it was just that the previous emperors worked through him. Well, sorta kinda... [/pedantic nitpicking]