But they're the worst type of players...

[WD40]

Grab a cuppa, this is a biggie....

In my 'Commeth the Banhammer' thread... this post arrived:

I ban metagaming and munchkinism... rules lawyering is an offense punishable by severe mocking and minimization of the PC within the plot.

I see this a lot...

"Powergamers are dumb."
"Rules Lawyers are a-holes"

And generally, the way people respond to them involves them being dumb a-holes themselves.

"But powergamers take all the fun out of the game."
- Ever considered that powergaming is how these people have fun in their games? Who are you or I to tell other people how they are to have fun?

"If someone powergames in my game, I just throw supra-hard monsters at them."
- So, you tailor your game around one player you find annoying... Deliberately targeting them and no doubt inconveniencing the rest of your players?

My answer: Just let them do it! If they're having fun, then congrats, you are playing a game.

So what if some of your combat encounters are shorter than you expect... The fact remains that you and your friends are still sitting round a table, having a good laugh... Besides Even the most min-maxed supra-optimized character cant do everything, he's gonna have to rely on his teamates for something.

Rules lawyers

"Rules lawers spoil the pace of the game and interrupt my flow."

(These sentiments were echoed in a Dragon editorial some time back) Why is having a rules lawyer at your table a problem? Some people find enjoyment at memorizing rules.

My table has two people who may or may not fall into the category of a 'Rules Lawyer'. One of them is myself, although I'm not as anal as many would assume. The other one is quite simply the best DM aid I can hope for. Considering the rest of the table consist of people who are a little fuzzy with the rules and cant remember everything, the two of us do a great job keeping track of rules across the board. With both of us working together, out PHB's are expected to double their usual 'thumb-through' lifespan.

In my experience, there is only one type of bad player, and that persons faults lie not with how they make their character, play their character or make their rules interpretations, but with how they deal with their fellow players.

So to wrap up.. why are Powergamers and Rules Lawyers so hated and sometimes even ostracized?

There have got to be other people who, like me, can see the fun that can be had if you just accept these people and their gaming quirks.

 

[Crothian]

So to wrap up.. why are Powergamers and Rules Lawyers so hated and sometimes even ostracized?

They disrupt the game and make it not fun for everyone else. Now there are of course different levels of both and a little rules lawyer or powergaming is rarely a problem. But when people use those terms they don't think of the many people who did them a little. They either think of the one player who abused the rules to get a 50AC at level 4 or the other guy who corrected the DM all night long arguing over the smallest things.

Plus these are message boards and right now around here it is uncool to be either for the most part. So, people jump on them and react badly towards them because there is really no repercussions for doing so.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

In my opinion, the only "bad" player is one who detracts from the fun of everyone involved. That being said, in my experience those who tend toward power gaming and rules lawyering also tend to be those prone to being pushy and/or argumentative. This is not true of all the power gamers and rules lawyers I've come across (I can be a bit of a rules lawyer at times, myself) but there seems to be a higher percentage of game disruptor among the power gamer and rules lawyer breeds.

It thus makes making blanket statements about both easier. Lumping them all together because of some bad apples. Rather like the Over-the-Top Roleplayer being banned because a few folks who can't seperate reality from fantasy.

 

[Huw]

I have a solution to the powergamer problem. Combine them with another sort of problem player - the one who creates (deliberately or otherwise) a suboptimal character, who therefore needs protecting. The powergamer gets to show off how cool their character is, the suboptimal player gets to do whatever they want to do (whether eating all the food or roleplaying their heart out) without feeling a burden. This only works, of course, when the powergamer actually wants to be part of the team and not a lone wolf type.

I saw this done in a recent Star Wars game. We had a new player, new as in "has to be reminded what a d20 is". We also had a power gamer. Said power gamer came up with a super-powerful battle droid. Solution: make him the newbie's bodyguard. It worked well for both players.

 

[Edgewood]

In my opinion, the only "bad" player is one who detracts from the fun of everyone involved.

I completely agree with this statement. If the fun has been sucked out of the game by a player, then that player by my definition is a bad player. As far as munchkinism and powergaming, every group I have DM'd has had one or both of these types of player before. I think that just knowing what their expectations are in the game is enough to deal with these player types. Actually I find munchkinism amusing...not sure why.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

It is all about group cohesion. Anyone on the extreme of any of the player archetypes is likely to annoy other players.

Powergamers: unbalances the game, munchkin, bad wrong fun.
Rules Lawyers: Drag things down quibbling about the rules.
Casul Gamer: never gets interested, its like prying teeth to get anything more than a die roll.
Thespian: can never get out of character and just have some fun and make a few jokes
Tactician: If it ain't complex combat, he's probably asleep.

etc. etc.

 

[Zendragon]

I've found that most Powergamers are rules lawyers as well. They know everything about their character and will correct you at the first opportunity. Powergamers tend to just specialize in that character. They may notice an error, but if it doesn't effect their character, they don't mention it.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

It is all about group cohesion. Anyone on the extreme of any of the player archetypes is likely to annoy other players.

Powergamers: unbalances the game, munchkin, bad wrong fun.
Rules Lawyers: Drag things down quibbling about the rules.
Casul Gamer: never gets interested, its like prying teeth to get anything more than a die roll.
Thespian: can never get out of character and just have some fun and make a few jokes
Tactician: If it ain't complex combat, he's probably asleep.

etc. etc.

On the other hand, each of these, if properly encouraged to add to everyone's fun...

Powergamers: Able to help out those new to game with optimizing their character, often good in combat situations.
Rules Lawyers: Make a great DMs assistant, able to look up (or even quote) nitpicky rules in a single bound.
Casual Gamer: Great for comic relief and going to the store for munchies.
Thespiam: Can help the others get into character, great for in-game social situations.
Tactician: Excellent in combat situations, can often help the party coordinate and win the day against the bad guys.

Etc, etc.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

You're putting the cart before the horse. Someone isn't a jerk because he's a rules-lawyer (or a munchkin), you think of him as a rules-lawyer because he's a jerk.

When people complain about power-gamers or rules-lawyers, they are applying a label to a specific set of disruptive behaviors. If the behavior isn't causing a problem, no one is complaining. Someone that knows the rules backwards and forwards and helps the DM keep things on track isn't a rules-lawyer, because he isn't causing a problem.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Good point.

I don't have too much of a problem with the concept of powergamers. But it's more often than not how they play the game, and their personalities, that becomes the problem.

For a while, an old gaming group of mine had a powergamer. He made a character that probably was the best combatant I've ever seen in a game - fine, that didn't affect everyone else's enjoyment of the game. What did was that he played the game like it was king of the hill, and he had to be standing far above all the other PCs. He essentially was an in-game bully.

I've found that most Powergamers are rules lawyers as well. They know everything about their character and will correct you at the first opportunity. Powergamers tend to just specialize in that character. They may notice an error, but if it doesn't effect their character, they don't mention it.