But they're the worst type of players...

[Meeki]

I play D&D with a bunch of rules lawyers, I am one of them. We spend little time arguing over the rules since, in the end, the DM gets the choice. Since we all know the rules very well we do not have issues, also we prepare our campaigns carefully to exclude too much power gaming to prevent 50 AC at lvl 4. Careful choice of allowed feats/spells/etc makes the game run better and have the DM quickly hash out any controversial rules is a must.

The DM is the ultimate rules lawyer, rules judge if you will. If you are a DM and someone is trying to bend the rules, please, please bring down the gavel on their face.

 

[Mycanid]

On the other hand, each of these, if properly encouraged to add to everyone's fun...

Powergamers: Able to help out those new to game with optimizing their character, often good in combat situations.
Rules Lawyers: Make a great DMs assistant, able to look up (or even quote) nitpicky rules in a single bound.
Casual Gamer: Great for comic relief and going to the store for munchies.
Thespian: Can help the others get into character, great for in-game social situations.
Tactician: Excellent in combat situations, can often help the party coordinate and win the day against the bad guys.

Etc, etc.

Must admit that I liked both Thornir's and crazypixie's "dual side of the coin" presentation here.

I tend to be the "thespian" sort.

 

[BlackMoria]

Powergamers, Metagamers and Munchkins being an impediment to the game is not a given.

I've had more problem players who are not powergamers, metagamers or munchkins but individuals who come to the game table and treat the game as some outlet for their problems in their life.

If they are marginalized individuals in real life, they demand that their characters be the center of attention in the game.

If they are loners with problems relating to the opposite sex, their characters become super sexually powerful lechers chasing barmaids and damsels in distress around.

If they have problems in their life at the moment, said problems suddenly manifest in game in outburst, arguments, and demands on the DM or other players.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

On the other hand, each of these, if properly encouraged to add to everyone's fun...

Powergamers: Able to help out those new to game with optimizing their character, often good in combat situations.
Rules Lawyers: Make a great DMs assistant, able to look up (or even quote) nitpicky rules in a single bound.
Casual Gamer: Great for comic relief and going to the store for munchies.
Thespiam: Can help the others get into character, great for in-game social situations.
Tactician: Excellent in combat situations, can often help the party coordinate and win the day against the bad guys.

Etc, etc.

Excellent point and I guess it goes to Rodrigo's statement about putting the cart before the horse. Any player type can be good or bad depending upon the way they present themselves and respect others.

 

[SavageRobby]

I don't see Rules Lawyers as being those that know the rules and make sure to point them out. (We have another name for them - rules b**ches, and usually we designate one to help free the DM up from looking up rules). To me, Rules Lawyers are the argumentative types who try to finagle every application and interpretation of the rules to their advantage. Typically they're more invested in winning their arguments than they are in actually playing the game. These kinds, I despise.

 

[Gentlegamer]

So to wrap up.. why are Powergamers and Rules Lawyers so hated and sometimes even ostracized?

Because they get their jollies at the expense of others' fun. It's kind of a "free rider" problem.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

You're putting the cart before the horse. Someone isn't a jerk because he's a rules-lawyer (or a munchkin), you think of him as a rules-lawyer because he's a jerk.

You said it before I could... Power gaming, etc.. are all symptoms that are easier to bash on that poor player ettiquette. I have been each of the above roles at least once in my time playing this game, and have seen many variations on the roles at the table. The only time the role was an issue was when the player was an problem.


Personally as a DM I love Rule-lawyers. They keep me from having to know all the rules and I still can mess with them via Rule 0. My current game has a number of experienced gamers, some of which have experience as a DM...and I think almost every role is present. The sessions still end up being very entertaining and fun for all... I just don't have any jerks at the table

 

[Doug McCrae]

Rules Lawyer is a pejorative term. It doesn't just mean someone who knows the rules but someone who brings up that knowledge in a way that's hurtful to the game.

Likewise powergamer though I see some people trying to reclaim it, much like geeks are doing with the word geek or black people with the n-word.

There's a sliding scale from min/maxer through powergamer and down to munchkin. No one really agrees what these words mean but they are to do with expending effort to create a more powerful character than the 'standard'. This can be a problem if there's a big power imbalance between the PCs.

 

[Holy Bovine]

I don't see Rules Lawyers as being those that know the rules and make sure to point them out. (We have another name for them - rules b**ches, and usually we designate one to help free the DM up from looking up rules). To me, Rules Lawyers are the argumentative types who try to finagle every application and interpretation of the rules to their advantage. Typically they're more invested in winning their arguments than they are in actually playing the game. These kinds, I despise.

That is exactly what I picture a rules lawyer to be. I have been fortunate in that I haven't encountered one since my 1E days. Now I'm considered the rules "lawyer" (although everyone always says expert) for 3E in my groups. I am also an unabashed power gamer in the respect that I build my character concepts using solid mechanics that can add greatly to whatever aspect I am playing up - social, combat, spells etc.

 

[kaomera]

I see this a lot...

"Powergamers are dumb."
"Rules Lawyers are a-holes"

And generally, the way people respond to them involves them being dumb a-holes themselves.

I can't speak for anyone else, but perhaps I over-use and/or mis-use the terms "powergamer" and "rules-lawyer". I don't see either as a neutral descriptor, in my mind they are derogatory in and of themselves. Someone who can make a well-designed character that exploits the rules to the fullest is a good player. Someone who bends the rules, tries to sneak things onto his character sheet, uses material from products "not in use" for a game, and/or continually argues every rules call that is not 100% in their favor is a powergamer. Someone who knows the rules well and can correct me when I make a bad call is a good player. Someone who has to "correct" every decision I make, always insists that every rule be read in their favor, repeatedly refuses to accept calls to keep the game going and deal with rules issues later, and/or tries to insist that their interpretation of the rules should trump the DM (and/or printed game materials) is a rules-lawyer.

"But powergamers take all the fun out of the game."
- Ever considered that powergaming is how these people have fun in their games? Who are you or I to tell other people how they are to have fun?

If I'm the DM, then that's who I am to tell other people how to have fun, or more specifically not to kill my fun. If I'm a player and the DM or another player is killing my fun (and, in the later case, the DM is not dealing with the issue / we can't come to some compromise) I'm going to end up leaving the game. Playing with a real Powergamer or Rules-Lawyer is just as little fun as playing in a game where an all-powerful DMPC hogs the spotlight.

"If someone powergames in my game, I just throw supra-hard monsters at them."
- So, you tailor your game around one player you find annoying... Deliberately targeting them and no doubt inconveniencing the rest of your players?

Now, this I can mostly agree with you on. I have seen a few cases where a DM will include tougher than normal challenges specifically to challenge one particular player. I've even pulled it off myself, once or twice. But I'm always a bit cautions (well, really, nervous) about it because, as you pointed out, it can quickly reach the point where it's unfair and/or just hurts the other players. But when it works you end up with the player in question getting to really show off what they can do with their character! Unfortunately there are also cases where a DM will throw stuff at a powerful character either to "knock him down a peg" or just to outright smear him across the landscape. I don't agree with this method of DMing, and worse such a DM rarely really cares what happens to the other PCs in the process...

My answer: Just let them do it! If they're having fun, then congrats, you are playing a game.

So what if some of your combat encounters are shorter than you expect... The fact remains that you and your friends are still sitting round a table, having a good laugh... Besides Even the most min-maxed supra-optimized character cant do everything, he's gonna have to rely on his teamates for something.

As long as they're not ruining the fun of anyone else, I agree. But there are those players who really do expect their PCs to be able to do everything and will not willingly give up the spotlight to another player for any reason. I haven't exactly seen many players like this, but those I have seem genuinely unaware that they really are ruining the game for others. Usually they blame the other players' inability to enjoy watching them run around and do everything on them being bad players (somehow). And if they actually fail at something, then the DM is just out to get them...

Now, given that there are few players who are really like this, you might think that there shouldn't be so much venom ready to be spewed at the merest mention of Powergaming, Rules-Lawyering, etc. However, if you've ever actually experienced having to sit across from this type of player, it tends to get burned into your mind. I'd argue that it's the same thing as with bad DMPCs and/or serious railroading by a DM: it doesn't come up much (and most players / DMs who fall into one of these categories are liable to change their ways after a bit of constructive feedback), but it always makes the list of "worst gaming experiences ever".

Rules lawyers

"Rules lawers spoil the pace of the game and interrupt my flow."

(These sentiments were echoed in a Dragon editorial some time back) Why is having a rules lawyer at your table a problem? Some people find enjoyment at memorizing rules.

My table has two people who may or may not fall into the category of a 'Rules Lawyer'. One of them is myself, although I'm not as anal as many would assume. The other one is quite simply the best DM aid I can hope for. Considering the rest of the table consist of people who are a little fuzzy with the rules and cant remember everything, the two of us do a great job keeping track of rules across the board. With both of us working together, out PHB's are expected to double their usual 'thumb-through' lifespan.

Again, IMHO I'd say that neither of you deserves the title of Rules-Lawyer.