Buyer's remorse (Spycraft 2.0)!

[Henry]

I think it's more accurate to say D20 Modern does automatic weapons so poorly...

There have been d20 implementations before and since that do automatic weapons better. In fact, I can't think of a d20 autofire implementation WORSE that d20 modern...

While not gritty, d20 modern autofire rules are VERY quick and playable, and that has inherent value in itself.

Spycraft's autofire rules are better, IMO, because they have some workable rules both for autofire (layin' down the lead on a single target!) and for strafing (spraying a roomful of goons!). They're only slightly more detailed than modern's rules, but it's enough to get the right feel.

 

[GlassJaw]

While not gritty, d20 modern autofire rules are VERY quick and playable, and that has inherent value in itself.

Well no one ever accused Shadowrun of being a quick system!

Spycraft's autofire rules are better, IMO, because they have some workable rules both for autofire (layin' down the lead on a single target!) and for strafing (spraying a roomful of goons!). They're only slightly more detailed than modern's rules, but it's enough to get the right feel.

Considering I just got 2.0 (and the fact that I'll be reading it on a plane later tonight), perhaps it will change my mind. We shall see.

 

[Henry]

Considering I just got 2.0 (and the fact that I'll be reading it on a plane later tonight), perhaps it will change my mind. We shall see.

Truthfully, I haven't yet read SC2's autofire rules - I just assumed they hadn't changed much from 1.0. Now I need to re-read them too and be sure they didn't complicate 'em!

 

[Jim Hague]

Truthfully, I haven't yet read SC2's autofire rules - I just assumed they hadn't changed much from 1.0. Now I need to re-read them too and be sure they didn't complicate 'em!

Nope, theyre much simpler - no more long/short burst, for one, and autofire on a single target (IIRC, I'll check my book in a couple hours) is a flat -2 to hit, and for every step above their Defense (2 or 5...I think), another shot hits. Strafe I don't recall, but I'll happily answer later on.

 

[jdrakeh]

... if you want setting and rules, and you want something that moves smoothly and quickly, Shadowrun 4e may be worthwhile.

Yeah, I want all of that. While Spycraft 2.0 roxxorz my soxxorz, it doesn't seem to me like something that will run all that smoothly or quickly (there are a lot of micro-management rules that I'd have to absorb as a GM). I might return to it later, as I think that it does a stellar job of emulating genre conventions, but it's just a wee bit too "overdone" to be practical for me. I think it will have to be Shadowrun!

 

[Jim Hague]

Yeah, I want all of that. While Spycraft 2.0 roxxorz my soxxorz, it doesn't seem to me like something that will run all that smothly or quickly (there is a lot of micro-management). I might return to it later, as I think that it does a stellar job of emulating genre conventions, but it's just a wee bit too "overdone" to be practical for me. I think it will have to be Shadowrun!

You might be surprised how quick it runs. Combat's going to be the most fiddly part of the game, and out of 3 sessions we've had using SC 2.0 for a Gamma World game, neither combat we've has has lasted longer than 10 minutes total, and it all ran smooth as glass. This is with, mind, 2 novice players who don't have more than a basic grasp of the rules yet.

I think what worries people is the Fluid Initiative rules and stuff like recoil. IME (so far), neither one affects most combats to any great degree. Unless you've got characters with 8 Strength or less, all but the heaviest weapons aren't a problem, and you might see a bit of difficulty hitting with the +1 or 2 increase in recoil from bursts and full autofire, but it's unlikely.

To sum up - 20% of the rules (the basics) is used 80% of the time; the rest is just there for specifics.

 

[jdrakeh]

This is with, mind, 2 novice players who don't have more than a basic grasp of the rules yet.

I'm more worried about problems on my side of the screen, as the GM. Like other d20 games, I have no doubt that Spycraft 2.0 is very easy for the other players (Roll 1d20 and add something to the result), but that ease of use for other players is achieved by placing the burden removed from their shoulders upon the GM. And in Spycraft 2, the burden to learn the ins and outs of all of the new fiddly bits will likely outweigh the payoff (for me). Shadowrun 4e seems to be much less complex in terms of 'fiddly' mechanics, which will make it a lot more fun (and a lot less trouble) for me as a GM.

 

[swrushing]

I'm pretty convinced that I could have a lot more fun with that game than with Spycraft, for a lot less effort (i.e., it comes with a detailed setting).

I own both.

I am generally biased (in my later years) in favor of games over toolkits. Spycraft is a great toolkit.

So knowing nothing more than that, my rather uninformed opinion is you will be better served with shadowrun. This is reinforced by your own assessment of the work being a factor in your decision.

Now, that said, the first place i would look is to your players. Which excites them? if they are more inerested in a more realistic spy game than the more fanciful cyberpunk/magic setting of shadowrun... you might want to buckle down and keep with spycraft.

Also, which one gives you the "ohh i can do this..." and the "wow that would be cool..." and sparks more ideas as you go thru?

In short, frankly, my advice is usually "run where the fun is" which means finding more from your potential players and also what more excites you and hoping those are one and the same.

 

[jdrakeh]

I am generally biased (in my later years) in favor of games over toolkits. Spycraft is a great toolkit.

Yeah, I think that the seeds of that particular bias have been planted in me, as well. As time goes by and I read more and more tool-kit systems, I have come to the realization that they are all roads leading to the same place, merely taking different routes to get there. Today I'm more concerned about the final destination than than the road travelled, to be honest.

Now, that said, the first place i would look is to your players.

Normally, I complain about not having a regualr play group. There is one thing that rocks about not being involved in a regular play group, however, and that thing is not having to be accountable to anybody but me where purchasing decisions are concerned

Also, which one gives you the "ohh i can do this..." and the "wow that would be cool..." and sparks more ideas as you go thru?

Easily Shadowrun. As I've said, Spycraft 2.0 is great at what it does, but the more I read, the less interest I have in what it does. I'm startign to realize that I want a full-blown game and not just another system

 

[MrFilthyIke]

Shadowrun to to nearest LGS, and trade that in for...Shadowrun.