[C&C] Using the D&D CR system

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Probably going to sound like a bit of an odd thing, but I'm curious to know just how useable the CR system is, moving it into C&C.

Yeah, C&C as in Castles and Crusades. I like the streamlining that the system does, but I like the inherent attempts to balance things that d20 has done (or tried to do). Combining the focused balance of d20 work with the rule implementations of C&C seems to be the ultimate for me. I don't mind doing a bunch of back-end/hidden work to get a smooth play experience, so it wasn't pointless work for me. And no, I don't have True20 and don't plan on getting it.

Towards that end, I redid the C&C classes using Buy The Numbers and Elements of Magic. Granted, there's a number of things that C&C does away with or ignores, but the CR system should still be useful, shouldn't it?

I'm especially intrigued because of my recent post about trying to use a CR/ECL calculator to build races, which led me to this discussion about how Grim Tales handles races: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=127923

I like the looks of how GT takes care of dealing with races, without resorting to LA and I'm not convinced that a flat XP percentage penalty (like we used to do back in the day) is really the way to go.

So... can I make CR work for me?

 

[jdrakeh]

In the C&C campaign that I ran last Summer, the monsters seemed to be a great deal tougher than their D&D 3x counterparts (Lizardmen, for instance, are godawfully hard for low level characters to damage in C&C). I'd look at adding at least 2 to the CR of each creature when using its M&T counterpart, possibly more based on AC and damage dealt.

 

[Turanil]

Towards that end, I redid the C&C classes using Buy The Numbers and Elements of Magic. Granted, there's a number of things that C&C does away with or ignores, but the CR system should still be useful, shouldn't it?

I don't know where your question is concerned, but I would be interested in seeing what you've done with the classes.

 

[Treebore]

I'm not sure. I never saw a need to do such a thing. I just look at AC and if the party can hit it 50% or more on the parties average rolls its an easy encounter, unless the HP are high.

When the AC is high enough the party will hit less than 25% of the time it becomes harder.

After I have determined difficulty on the combat front I then evaluate the odds of having saves made by the PC's and the NPC's.

As long as the average damage of damage causing spells would take 2 failed saves to kill them its a "fair" encounter. Unless the bad guys have two spellcasters. Then it becomes hard/very dangerous.

Then you have to consider the odds and effects of failing a save versus hold type spells.

Those are worse because they can effectively remove one character from the combat with one failed saving throw.

Losing one character, especially in the first round, could spell a lost battle and possible TPK's.

In other words, to me these are the real variables to weigh, and the CR system never accurately reflected them except by what seemed to be totally by accident.

So I just kept determining the encounters threat level using my method.

So I can't help you on that front. But if you do figure out a way I would be interested to see it.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Well, I've got the Grim Tales book, which includes an implementation of the creature builder from Upper Krust's CR system.

In case you're not familiar with it, you can see version 5 of the system (which is the version used by Grim Tales) here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=132991&page=1&pp=40 post #42.

So my thinking is that given that you can see the breakdown of classes using the CR system, as well as running critters through it, you can essentially use the CR system for something like C&C. Granted it's not an _exact_ match up (given how C&C handles stuff) but if both the critters and the classes are coming from a similar place, than the system should allow for be a bit more... predictable... results than the sort of method outlined by Treebore.

I'm also thinking of switching over to the Chi/Rho method for XP, to deal with races other than human. Post 70 of this thread: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=86471&page=2 basically lays out the Chi/Rho method, and the thread here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=127923 shows how it plays out in regards to races that would be ECL/LA adjusted.

I admit to being lazy, so even though I've got the GT book, I went ahead and picked up the Gamemaster section and plan on getting the Creature Creator. The point for getting these is the spreadsheets included, so I don't have to do any more work myself.

You can find the Gamemaster and Creature Creator bits for sale here:
http://enworld.rpgnow.com/default.php?manufacturers_id=624

Won't that have an effect on doing on the fly conversion from older products?

Yup, potentially it will. But that's not really much of a consideration for what I'm doing, especially given my tendency to make notes to help me in running a game.

What I'm going for with my C&C game is a blend of Palladium and Xcrawl, so a consistent (or semi-consistent) methodolgy for building classes and the critters that try and chew on them is what I'm more focused on.

I don't know where your question is concerned, but I would be interested in seeing what you've done with the classes.

Errr... you mean, what are some of the classes I've done for my game, or how is it I'm building them? My tastes in games is pretty different from what I see most people talking about (either D&D or C&C) so I doubt my classes will really mean anything. I mean... professional dungeon entertainment in the Palladium world, with one of the options being a Monster using (Pokemon-style) delver? Another game I'm thinking of trying to get some folks to play is a Dragonstar type game, with some Shadowrun elements.

I think I'm a bit too "wahOOO!" for most folks.

 

[Treebore]

I would get the Grim Tales Creature PDF but I'll be *bleeped* If i'm going to pay $8.00 for a 16 page PDF. Or $2.00 for a 5 page PDF. $.40 to $.50 per page is rediculous.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

I would get the Grim Tales Creature PDF but I'll be *bleeped* If i'm going to pay $8.00 for a 16 page PDF. Or $2.00 for a 5 page PDF. $.40 to $.50 per page is rediculous.

Errrr..... you really don't have to. The links I provided (UK's CR system, the Chi/Rho explanation, and ECL/LA critters using it) basically lays out all the stuff you need. I bought the GT stuff not because I needed the information (I already own the GT book) but because they include spreadsheets to handle the calculations. If you're handy with doing Excel stuff (I'm not) or have somebody to figure out the formulas and put 'em in for you (I don't) then you don't really need to buy it. What you're really buying is the spreadsheets combined with the information. For me, it was worth spending the few dollars. If it was the information alone it'd be a waste for me, since I've already got the GT book.

 

[Imaro]

Hey Scurvy, just downloaded the PDF and I'm liking it. Have to look over it more before I make any constructive comments, but I'm wondering if it could be used to construct custom classes for C&C. Will definitely tell you what I think, once I get time to really go over it.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Have to look over it more before I make any constructive comments, but I'm wondering if it could be used to construct custom classes for C&C.

Hmmm. You know, I kinda toyed with that idea myself, but ultimately decided not to go that route. My gut instinct is that it'd certainly be possible, but I'm not sure if it'd really be _easier_ to do, rather than using Buy The Numbers like I did.

 

[Flynn]

Essentially, what you appear to be looking at with using CR in C&C is that you wish to use the XP calcs that go with the CR system, if I am reading what you've written correctly. C&C isn't built around those "rate of XP" assumptions, so you will find that you will have a different sense of advancement than you would otherwise experience in a "normal" C&C game. If you are willing to take that hit, then I am sure it will work out pretty well, given the number of C&C fans that proclaim C&C's pretty straight-forward compatibility with other D20 systems.

You may want to try it out in a One Shot or Mini-Series scenario first, though, to see how well it works in practice. If you do, please share your results, as I'm sure a number of people would be interested.

With Regards,
Flynn