California bill (AB 412) would effectively ban open-source generative AI


log in or register to remove this ad

I may be typing from a place of ignorance here, and am looking to understand the issue better, but as long as the output doesn't violate existing copyright law (ie the output work is significantly different from the original so as to not run afoul of copyright law) why do artists need protection for the training of AI models? Isn't it mimicking what humans do when we train ourselves in the arts?
The sticky point is "existing copyright law". That's where the current fight is and the creatives are winning 🤓
 

Nah, I'm not going to get into this. Its not a calculator. Its not even remotely the same scale, capacity, and potential for harm.

Just another day I wish this forum had an 'ignore thread' feature.
Please know that I am truly interested in understanding here, and am not being obtuse. I only mentioned a calculator because it does in seconds what took a talented human a long period of time. And just as some people could never do the type of math that a calculator does, I could never do the type of artwork displayed in the above post myself.

What is the specific harm that you are referencing here? Again, from my less than fully informed position, any output that would be considered plagiarism or a direct copyright violation wouldn't be able to be sold, so the original copyright holder is still protected.
 

What is the specific harm that you are referencing here? Again, from my less than fully informed position, any output that would be considered plagiarism or a direct copyright violation wouldn't be able to be sold, so the original copyright holder is still protected.

Corporations are under very real pressure to minimize costs. The greatest costs to a corporation, are the wages they pay to people. There is a reason we see layoffs as a way to 'increase profits'.

If some idiot (me!) can create 1000's of images, that to the uneducated typical consumer are as good or BETTER than what a company has to today pay someone to create, can you not see the very real issue here that artists can be replaced by some rando clicking a button?
 

Some thoughts:

1) It isn't really mimicking humans in that it isn't learning like humans learn, and isn't thinking like humans think. People tend to get pretty upset if you imply this.

2) But, it is mimicking to the extent it is taking in lots of data and then outputting something new. Just at a very rough level.

3) It's an outstanding question how much training data is retained in the models. Things that are ubiquitous (Shakespeare, Mario) can be reproduced exactly. Things that only occur in rare contexts (i.e., something following a set of words that occurs only once in the training set) can also be reproduced directly.

4) Because of (3), some argue they are not outputting new things, but just copying things from the training data. This means they effectively include copywritten material in the model.

5) However, they also transform and modify the output substantially. The goal of AI is explicitly not to copy, and direct copying is considered undesirable. So what they are doing is distinct from say, downloading a bunch of pdfs and letting the user peruse them.

6) Patches and workarounds for (4) might not eliminate the copywritten data in the model. So even if the model isn't outputting copywritten stuff, it still is there, buried, and that stuff is necessary for it to produce what it produces. It's relying on copywritten things even if it is not producing them.

7) Some people are upset at the idea of training on copywritten stuff at all, even if the generative program could never reproduce it. They view it as different from say, a human reading. Part of this may depend on how the data is accessed. A NYTimes subscription may be fine for a human to read and learn but not a program.
A lot of good food for thought. I would say that this forum's very existence is predicated on number 6. D&D wouldn't exist if it hadn't relied on the copyrighted material that informs it's core :)

Again, I'm not just trying to be a devils advocate, troll, or ignorant here. I'm looking to better understand the issue. Note that I hold a core belief that pirating media is theft, and I do not consume media that I don't pay for. But I don't see that as what is happening with AI. I understand and feel for people trying to protect their jobs (as someone who worked in entertainment for 25 years and is now changing careers to healthcare post losing my last job and not being able to find work in my old field) but that, to me, is not a good enough reason to not push forward with new technology.
 

Please know that I am truly interested in understanding here, and am not being obtuse. I only mentioned a calculator because it does in seconds what took a talented human a long period of time. And just as some people could never do the type of math that a calculator does, I could never do the type of artwork displayed in the above post myself.

What is the specific harm that you are referencing here? Again, from my less than fully informed position, any output that would be considered plagiarism or a direct copyright violation wouldn't be able to be sold, so the original copyright holder is still protected.

Actually, copyright was designed to protect authors from having their work copied as-is and resold. IE, I do not steal a book from a bookshop to sell it (that's theft, another completely different problem), but what can the author do if I just buy one book and photocopy it and sell it? He wasn't harmed by any kind of theft... and it fell into a "void", until copyright was invented, to incentivize authors to publish more. So they could get recourse from the harm of having their work copied as-is (or worse, passed of as the original).

Some advocate en evolution, thinking copyright should extend to include the exclusive right for the author to allow or disallow the use of their works for AI training. Which in many place, it doesn't. They claim it's because the copyright laws predates the AI. Which may be true in some place (including, apparently, the US) and false elsewhere (several countries specifically amended their IP laws to take AI into consideration, for example the EU introduced a text and datamining exemption to copyright), some advocate for disclosing the source used, and so on.
 

Corporations are under very real pressure to minimize costs. The greatest costs to a corporation, are the wages they pay to people. There is a reason we see layoffs as a way to 'increase profits'.

If some idiot (me!) can create 1000's of images, that to the uneducated typical consumer are as good or BETTER than what a company has to today pay someone to create, can you not see the very real issue here that artists can be replaced by some rando clicking a button?
I think a better use of our time would be to fight for UBI than to fight against technology replacing jobs.
 


I think a better use of our time would be to fight for UBI than to fight against technology replacing jobs.

I think advocating for law changes in a country is a political debate that can't really be held on this board. But yes, artists aren't the only profession that will be threatened by technological progress in the future and it certainly will call for a collective reflexion on the societies we want to live in.
 

Who's going to pay the taxes that are going to provide UBI from the Government?
That's the real question! As technology is able to produce more and more, how do we, as a society, ensure that the basic necessities of life (food, clothing, shelter, safety, health care, education) are guaranteed to all.

I think that is the most important question to be answered in the next 15-20 years. Because the world is changing in a way that will make the industrial revolution look quaint, and I fear that if we continue to think in terms of what worked in the 20th century, we will lose out on the chance to create a world closer to Star Trek than Hunger Games.
 

Remove ads

Top