Call of the Twilight Defender

[Dandu]

CALL OF THE
TWILIGHT DEFENDER
Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Druid 6, sorcerer/wizard 6
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One twilight guardian
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The very ground erupts in a shower of stone
and dirt, accompanied by a thunderclap.
Standing in the center of the damaged
ground is a creature of stone, wood, and
plant parts resembling (lie regal form of a
guardian dragon.
This spell summons one twilight guardian (see page 121) to fight for you. The spell functions like a summon natures
ally spell, but with one exception. At any time, a summoned twilight guardian can sacrifice itself by simply touching you (a standard action); the twilight
guardian is immediately destroyed, and you gain a number of hit points equal to 1/2 the twilight guardian's remaining hit points before its sacrifice.
Special: A character who learns this spell gains a +1 competence bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks.

Note that there is no cap on how much HP you can get with this spell, nor does the HP expire.

TWILIGHT GUARDIAN CR 7
Always N Large plant (dragonblood)
Init +2; Senses low-light vision, Listen +2, Spot +2
AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 17 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural)
hp 76 (8HD); DR 10/magic
SR 16
Immune: plant immunities (MM 313)
Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +1
Speed 50ft. (10 squares)
Melee 2claws+12(1d6+7) and tail +7 (2d6+3 plus poison)
Space10ft.; Reach5 ft.
Base Atk +6; Grp +17
Atk Options Combat Reflexes
Spell-Like Abilities(CL8th):
At will—transport via plants
Abilities Str 25, Dex 14, Con 20. Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 6
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Natural Attack (tail), Run
Skills Climb +9, Listen +2, Search –1, Spot +2
Advancement see text
Poison (Ex) Injury, Fortitude DC 19, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Discuss.

(Thanks to Olo Demonsbane for pointing this out.)

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

1. Where is this spell and Twilight Defender from?

2. If it works liek a summon spell, then you're probably getting a monster from a statblock, and there is no improved hp with CL (by getting an advanced in HD monster?) if that's what you meant by "no cap on how much hp you can get."

3. If not, and you meant in terms of using the spell multiple times to keep adding hp, I'd think the spell stacking rules would take effect and the hp would merely overlap, with you benefitting from the highest amount that still has remaining duration. Which brings me to...

You have a point about no listed duration for the hp to expire. I guess you could use the spell duration of round/level, but that seems REALLY weak for a level 6 spell. I think they just goofed there. Unless they really intended it to be an "all day" buff (technically, "until you cast it again and the new casting overlaps the former"). Which, depending on how obscenely high the hp these creatures have, might be the case. A level 6 spell for say...+50 hp probably isn't too overpowered, compared to healing spells and the polymorph subschool spells that give huge chunks of temp hp as a secondary benefit.

 

[Dandu]

1. Where is this spell and Twilight Defender from?

Dragon Magic.

3. If not, and you meant in terms of using the spell multiple times to keep adding hp, I'd think the spell stacking rules would take effect and the hp would merely overlap, with you benefitting from the highest amount that still has remaining duration.

I meant this one. Now, I thought spell stacking might take place, but this isn't the spell granting you something, it's the spell summoning a monster that grants you something. It's not quite the same thing.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I meant this one. Now, I thought spell stacking might take place, but this isn't the spell granting you something, it's the spell summoning a monster that grants you something. It's not quite the same thing.

I think that's a pretty flimsy argument...

 

[Dandu]

Would you care to explain how it is a flimsy argument?

From what I remember,

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

And

Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

This isn't a bonus. This is HP.

If you want to object on the grounds that one cannot gain more HP than the maximum for the character, I think that would be a decent argument.

 

[Dross]

At any time, a summoned twilight guardian can sacrifice itself by simply touching you (a standard action); the twilight
guardian is immediately destroyed, and you gain a number of hit points equal to 1/2 the twilight guardian's remaining hit points before its sacrifice.

You need to explain the nature of the HP gain a bit better because as I read it, there is an argument that the HP gain is permanent.

If the HP are temporary HP, then I don't think Temp HP stack, since they are from the same source (At least the same spell by-product, RC pg 72).

 

[Dandu]

The exact nature of the HP gain is never described in the text of the spell, so I can't really provide you with more information.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

So it's just a really poorly written spell, then?

Are there any other spells in the game that give a permanent hp increase? I can only think of temp hp. If there is no other example in all of 3.5 of a spell doing that, wouldn't your agree it's safe to assume that Call of the Twilight Defender was never intended to give permanent hp?

And "you could probably get some permanent hp with Wish" doesn't count, that's a DM's call, not explicitly written.

 

[Dandu]

I don't think there are any that give a permanent HP increase.

I've always viewed this spell as giving you... more HP. Like healing, but without the healing and like temp HP, without the temporary part.

Although... yeah, I guess it doe sort of look like you might permanently gain HP.

I think ultimately this is another indication of how WotC writers do not understand their own game.

 

[Corsair]

Clearly the current rules text is missing something, the question is what.

My first instinct was to read it as healing. In my game it wouldn't put you over your max. Seems to be the simplest approach without needed to invent extra mechanical decisions like durations for temp HP, or deal with stacking issues.