Campaign Assumptions!

I really do not resonate with these theories. History is politically important and unless we are talking about established facts following vague assumptions is even more suspect about promoting some group interests -this can still be valid even if they do not relate historically to the promoting groups -hint of this: colonialist powers' rhetorics used for the shaping of feelings to various groups of people. Even modern research and study figures seem to still make bogus works due to interests that exist due to domino effects-

While I can't make much sense of this post, I do want to say that I think there are very good reasons why a society may adopt a conservative stance hostile to many forms of innovation. One can criticise Egypt for 'lack of progress' over 2000 years, but one can equally say that Egypt achieved a functional and stable society that looked to eternity, and vastly outlasted countless competitor nations. sic transit gloria mundi - highly innovative societies may burn bright, but burn briefly. In the natural world, many of the most widespread and successful flora and fauna are those that have changed least over many tens of millions of years. I have a lot of respect for cultures that are able to survive shocks organically and change only as necessary. It's quite possible that Japan (for instance) will still be around in recognisable form when Western civilisation is long gone.

Edit: Of course in fantasy and science fiction, the humans often act as stand-ins for Europeans/Westerners/Americans, so they're assumed to be restless, innovative, individualist and progress-oriented. Then they're contrasted with the 'civilised' demi-humans (elves), aliens (Vulcans) etc who are often presented as having the static, unchanging 'Oriental' cultures (there are also the 'barbaric' orcs, klingons et al). But there is no particular reason why this should be the case, other than accessibility to a Western audience. A few settings like Te'Kumel have non-Western humans; you could also have gnomes, halflings or such demi-humans being the individualist innovators, possibly in conflict with conservative human societies.
 
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Hi SkyOdin!

I only know a little about the cultural development of Japan and China but in terms of an increase in raw technological level, there wasn't a vast increase over this period that I am aware of.

I am not talking about art and culture; I am talking about technology and science. Were the Samurai not still using muskets before Perry arrived, of the sort europe had stopped using several centuries before or is this also a myth? Was it not a fact that Perry had a steam powered ironclad squadron to intimidate the Japanese wooden sailing ships, just as we had done a few years earlier to the Chinese. These are facts, as far as I aware (unless Perry himself was lying; this impression comes from his own account that was published after his return to the US). When you consider that Chinese culture was so far ahead of the west in science and technology in the early medieval period, this equates IMHO to an empirical phase of relative technological stagnation in these two nations, when compared to the West, over this time period.

First off, there are plenty of historical sources other than Commodore Perry's from the time. It is not like the Japanese didn't have a written language.

Here is the funny thing though, you are using the example of the steam engine as the prominent example of the more advanced technology of Europe. But here is the thing, the development of the steam engine was a fluke of history. Steam technology has existed in Europe since the scholars of ancient Alexandria devised steam engines as toys and amusements. The principles are so basic that most major civilizations, including the Chinese, understood them. The trick is that steam engines are horrifically inefficient unless until they reach a certain level of sophistication. Most civilizations had no reason to pursue steam technology to the point where it became viable.

Steam technology developed in England as the result of an unusual confluence of geography. Before you can have steam engines, you need coal. The only culture that can develop steam technology is one that is mining coal. This is because the environment of the coal mine itself is the only place where undeveloped steam technology can be refined, since a nearly unlimited amount of cheap, readily available fuel made up for the inefficiencies of early steam engines. In England, early prototype steam engines were used to drain water out of coal mines. Over time, these inefficient engines were refined into the more efficient ones that became the back-bone of the industrial revolution.

Now then, similar circumstances to the ones that occurred in England did occur elsewhere in the world at another time: in 12th century Song dynasty China. In the north of China are massive coal deposits, and the Song dynasty Chinese were taping into those deposits in the 12th century to fuel their massive steel industry. At the time, China was producing an amount of steel that would not be seen until the Industrial Revolution. There was only one difference between 12th China and 18th century England: the coal mines in China were dry. There was no need to pump water out of them using big, inefficient steam engines. That one difference may be the reason why China didn't industrialize in the 12th century.

The steam engine is not an inevitable result of some abstract notion of progress. It is something that resulted from very specific conditions. It is like asking why the Incans didn't have the wheel, even though they had a sophisticated road infrastructure. The answer is simple: they lived on steep mountains. Wheels were pretty much useless. As the saying goes: "Necessity is the mother of invention". The reason that Japan was still using a 200 year old musket when Commodore Perry arrived is because they hadn't fought a war in 200 years.

The real test of civilization is in how it adapts to a changing world. In that regard, Japan succeeds admirably. In a few decades, Japan went from a country 200 years behind Europe technologically to the country that completely stomped Russia in a naval battle. The real big question is how China, the most advanced civilization on Earth throughout history up to that point, failed to modernize. Greater historians that I have tackled that question and failed, but I do have some theories. Most notably, China is a big, populous country. It simply takes more time for a big country to modernize and build up infrastructure, and it got overrun by foreign powers and torn apart by internal dissent before that could happen.
 
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In a few decades, Japan went from a country 200 years behind Europe technologically to the country that completely stomped Russia in a naval battle.

And 30 years later a newly industrialised Russian army stomped Japan at the Battle of Lake Baikal - the Russians also benefitted from having a certain General Zhukov in command. This led Japan to seek easier prey amongst the Western colonial empires' holdings in the Pacific, and to prioritise the Navy over the Army. Japan's carrier fleets proceeded to stomp the European battleship fleets, until the US's own expanding carrier fleets turned things around.
 

While I can't make much sense of this post...
You are right. That paragraph needs better syntax use and overall articulation. Nevertheless my point was that what you are talking about could more easily be the effect of some roots of some propaganda than scientific study and research.

Edit: Of course in fantasy and science fiction, the humans often act as stand-ins for Europeans/Westerners/Americans, so they're assumed to be restless, innovative, individualist and progress-oriented. Then they're contrasted with the 'civilised' demi-humans (elves), aliens (Vulcans) etc who are often presented as having the static, unchanging 'Oriental' cultures (there are also the 'barbaric' orcs, klingons et al). But there is no particular reason why this should be the case, other than accessibility to a Western audience. A few settings like Te'Kumel have non-Western humans; you could also have gnomes, halflings or such demi-humans being the individualist innovators, possibly in conflict with conservative human societies.

I still think you are seeing things.
 
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The real big question is how China, the most advanced civilization on Earth throughout history up to that point, failed to modernize.

As a big country or empire, China goes through periods of unity and disintegration. My understanding was that the rising power of the West hit when China's natural sine-wave progression was on a downward curve, plunging her very far down. China under Deng Tsa-Ping and on clearly did pull herself together and has advanced rapidly, just as Japan and then Korea had done. China may well be the most powerful nation of the second half of the 21st century, and may retain that position for centuries, although for cultural reasons I think China is unlikely to take the globally dominant leadership role the USA has had since 1945.
 

SkyOdin; not sure we really disagree at all.

I love Japan and its culture so much that I have studied Japanese in my spare time for years and go there whenever I can find an excuse; it is literally one of my favourite places on earth.

I also agree that their cultural resilence is INCREDIBLE and that transformation that Japan underwent after Perry was literally staggering.

But this doesn't change my initial assertion; that Chinese/Japanese technology, at this particular point in history after a long period of cultural isolation, was almost stagnate when compared with the west.

The steam-engine is only one piece of technology, but the Americans also had gatling guns and accurate artillery pieces with rifled shells and repeating rifles for infantry. Their ships were also made of iron and their agriculture and machinery were in every way superior to the Japanese at that time. This is indeed why Japan threw out all the old traditions and copied a large number of western ways, as did the Chinese.

Indeed, the gap would have been even more enormous if Perry had not contacted Japan just then; imagine if Japan was still isolated after the first world war. Then the west would have had submarines, machines guns, planes, tanks etc and Japan would most likely not have advanced at all in 70 years in terms of technology.

I only used Japan/China as a recent example of isolation preventing technological innovation and in no way meant to imply that the west is in any way superior to China or Japan now; far from it!
 

I still think you are seeing things.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Obviously propaganda/politics plays a role in how history is viewed - Whig & neo-liberal, Tory, orthodox Marxist, Frankfurt School (Critical Theory), nationalist etc approaches all interpret history to suit their own world views. My understanding is that Edward Said's Frankfurt School deconstructionist approach is dominant in US academia and influential in school textbooks, but most of the popular history books bought by the general public are still pretty much in the Whig-liberal tradition, same as a century ago.
 

SkyOdin; not sure we really disagree at all.

I love Japan and its culture so much that I have studied Japanese in my spare time for years and go there whenever I can find an excuse; it is literally one of my favourite places on earth.

I also agree that their cultural resilence is INCREDIBLE and that transformation that Japan underwent after Perry was literally staggering.

But this doesn't change my initial assertion; that Chinese/Japanese technology, at this particular point in history after a long period of cultural isolation, was almost stagnate when compared with the west.

The steam-engine is only one piece of technology, but the Americans also had gatling guns and accurate artillery pieces with rifled shells and repeating rifles for infantry. Their ships were also made of iron and their agriculture and machinery were in every way superior to the Japanese at that time. This is indeed why Japan threw out all the old traditions and copied a large number of western ways, as did the Chinese.

Indeed, the gap would have been even more enormous if Perry had not contacted Japan just then; imagine if Japan was still isolated after the first world war. Then the west would have had submarines, machines guns, planes, tanks etc and Japan would most likely not have advanced at all in 70 years in terms of technology.

I only used Japan/China as a recent example of isolation preventing technological innovation and in no way meant to imply that the west is in any way superior to China or Japan now; far from it!

Ydars ancient greeks had invented computers to navigate. I am talking about actual computing machines, similar in scope with those of the first half of 20st century. They constructed this simply because they needed it and they could achieve it-it was feasible economically.
Similarly, in modern history as resources grew due to colonization and exploitation of Africa and the New World and Asia the powers "needed" to be able to exert more oppressing force and step by step better logistics and better infrastructure. It has nothing to do with Western values or culture or civilization. It has to do with what you can do-achieve to suit your needs.
 

SkyOdin; not sure we really disagree at all.

But this doesn't change my initial assertion; that Chinese/Japanese technology, at this particular point in history after a long period of cultural isolation, was almost stagnate when compared with the west.

I think your use of the term "technology" is perhaps a misleading one here - it sounds more like you are referring to a few groupings of particular technologies, particularly military and mechanical. "Technology" is a rather broad term, and to suggest that the west was superior (whatever that even means!) to east asia across all technologies is playing things a little fast and loose to my mind.
 

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