Campaign Assumptions!

Yeah, but do you believe the Cleric who claims "X is evil!" - He could be lying. He could be evil himself. And what does evil mean, anyway? A little bit of taint on the soul? A ravening fiend? Conscious alignment with evil forces? And what does it mean in an evil-aligned society that reveres Tash or Hextor? Is evil then 'good' and good 'evil'?

I find that just ignoring this gives as plausible results as any other approach.

Edit: Look at something like the Great Kingdom on Greyhawk, where Lawful Evil Hextor is the dominant religion. Do Hextorists walk around proclaiming how evil they are? It seems unlikely.

Well, they would actually have to declare that they are evil. It's not a secret. It's a quantifiable force in a D&D world. Alignment isn't just a philosophy, not in 3e anyway. It's just as real and detectable as gravity or any other force.

An evil aligned society that reveres Hextor, for example, would absolutely know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they are evil. There is no grey here. Heck, in 1e it was even more prevalent because you had actual alignment languages.

Evilly aligned people would have to know that they are evil unless they are completely delusional. In the same way that good aligned people would know that they are good. In the same way that I know that I'm tall or that Bloggins over there is short.

I guess this is my basic problem with trying to take the rules of D&D and extrapolate them into a believable world. To me, the mechanics of D&D (and this is not meant as any sort of edition war because 4e certainly fits into this as well as any other edition) create a world that is so bizarre, so utterly alien to anything we could even begin to comprehend that it's nearly impossible to do it.

The rules of D&D, and the assumptions behind them, have some effect on the campaign world you create. True. But, if you try to go beyond the very basic, skeletal world and actually try to ascertain how these mechanics would shape the history of a world, it's doomed to failure.

But, it is fun to try.
 

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The Aztecs are the one culture I can think of that kind-of regarded themselves as evil, and feared the return of Quetzalcoatl who would stop their human sacrifices.

For a more typical Evil society, I think they'd simply redefine the word 'evil' so it meant something more like 'strength', while 'good' became 'weak' - thus Lawful Strong Hextor becomes clearly superior to Lawful Weak Heironeus.
 

The Aztecs are the one culture I can think of that kind-of regarded themselves as evil, and feared the return of Quetzalcoatl who would stop their human sacrifices.

For a more typical Evil society, I think they'd simply redefine the word 'evil' so it meant something more like 'strength', while 'good' became 'weak' - thus Lawful Strong Hextor becomes clearly superior to Lawful Weak Heironeus.

But, really, how do you get around it though. I mean, your god's servants are demons and devils, not angels. Every detection spell out there says that you're evil. People can commune with those who have died before you and can emphatically (and empirically - after all they could actualy GO there and talk to them) state that you go to Hell (or whatever evil plane you care to point to) for worshipping this individual.

I'm sure the propaganda machine would have to work overtime, but, it's going to get out. The fire and brimstone smell would be a bit of a give away. :)

I'm thinking, perhaps, that good/evil appellations would have a different social stigma in a D&D world. A Hextorite knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he's evil, just as you know the colour of your hair. But, he doesn't care, because, well, he's evil. :)
 


Exactly. Renaissance-Enlightenment-Industrial Revoluton. Nothing like it had ever happened before.

Sure it has. Foodgathering-Nomads-Agriculture. The humanistic differences you are talking about between West and East do not exist really (IMO). What exists is the spread of some technology among communicating groups. This has always been the case. Geopolitics serve only to understand the casual politics of local societies. But the first word is -geo.
 


Your definition of 'like' clearly differs from mine. :erm:

Why? In fact agriculture seems more important than industrialization -if not a necessary step to reach it. Securing one's home and food so you have less risks to take and so less worries about it has changed the economy and society in more a drastic way than industrialization which seems to be a further step down the road. But who really knows how much time it took humanity to reach agriculture status...And I doubt one should analyze this through a similar west-east humanistic lens you are trying to do. Similarly about the achievements of modern history if not even more especially since it is more profound the connection of all humans around the globe that we may want to accept it happened after 1492.
 
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Why? In fact agriculture seems more important than industrialization -if not a necessary step to reach it....

Sure - doesn't make it the same thing. I dunno, I'm sorry but I'm tired of trying to decipher your posts, I'm going to have to put you on my ignore list.
 

S'mon; it is not just historians who are myopic, all scholars tend to get so wrapped up in their tiny specialism that they forget the big picture. I know I have many times and will again ;).

...

So I get where he is coming from, it is just that it he seems to not understand the reverse and mpore traditional point of view which, while obviously flawed, is also a real part of the way the world unfolded.
I guess there have been a series of miscommunications taking place in this thread. I am not trying to say that the technological innovations of the West that occured as the result of the Industrial Revolution were meaningless. I am not trying to argue that there was no gap in knowledge and technology between East Asian societies and Western ones in the 18th century. It is pretty obvious that there was. China fell behind, that is a historical fact. The only big question is why.

There is only one claim that I have been arguing against: that there are periods of hundreds or thousands of years where nothing of note happens in a civilization's history. There are two places where I see this sentiment appear commonly:

1) The idea that there was nothing major happening in the realm of technology, science, and intellectual development in Europe between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance. This is deeply mistaken belief, since significant technological progress took place in Europe at this time, and there were a lot of intellectuals who were actively seeking out knowledge from foreign sources and rediscovering lost knowledge.

2) The idea that Chinese civilization went completely unchanged from ancient China until Westerners came onto the scene in force in the 19th century. This vision of Chinese civilization completely ignores the deep and pervasive changes in culture and technology that occurred constantly as China transitioned from one dynasty to the next. I can state a number of major differences between each individual dynasty that reflect sweeping changes in Chinese culture. Similar arguments can be made for Japan and India.


Honestly, the charges that I am someone who "can't see the forest for the trees" is something that really bothers me, since my interest in History runs contrary to that. The reason I have never found Modern History that interesting is that I think it is too focused on minute details. I much prefer ancient history, where you can study how the civilizations of the world rise, change over time, an eventually fall. Furthermore, I have spent an equal amount of time studying both European history and East Asian history in college. So I don't consider my study of history and my understanding of history to be particularly "myopic". I like looking at the bigger picture.


As a side note, my post where I made the handguns/knives analogy was completely unrelated to my main argument. That was just me nitpicking S'mon's particular claim that technology is something that can be easily compared. I saw some holes in his theory, so I pointed them out. I never meant to imply that my comments there were related to the rest of my argument.
 
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When did that become canon? Per 1e I'd have thought Hextor's servants would be evil Einheriar.

My 1e fu is weak. Not sure what an Einheriar is.

But, I do know that every Hextor cleric in 3e, from 1st level onward can only summon fiendish creatures to do his bidding. Bit of a giveaway that. :) Particularly when Heironeous clerics can only summon celestials.
 

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