D&D 5E (2014) Camping is dangerous (how can it be made safer?)

[Hannerdyn]

I haven't seen Rope Trick mentioned. Even at mid-levels that was our go-to camp spell in 3E, and from what I remember, little has changed. It's a ritual now, and I think the duration has been limited, but for a short rest it's likely all you'll need to keep safe for an hour.

 

[MarkB]

I haven't seen Rope Trick mentioned. Even at mid-levels that was our go-to camp spell in 3E, and from what I remember, little has changed. It's a ritual now, and I think the duration has been limited, but for a short rest it's likely all you'll need to keep safe for an hour.

It's not a ritual.

 

[Hannerdyn]

It's not a ritual.

Oops. Thank you.

Still pretty handy.

 

[Grainger]

No, D&D leather armour really is cuir bouilli style armour, although likely just a breast piece and pauldrons (with optional skirt of soft leather). The PHB even calls it out as hardened leather via boiling oil. The stuff was real, and in fact I might even include Macedonian hoplite linothorax as a material as well.
Neither chain nor plate are probably very comfy to sleep in, but I'd at least let a character wear the attendant padding and treat it as wearing padded armour if they insist on sleeping in something other than their skivvies.

Yeah, you seem to be right about Cuir Bouilli (I forgot about it earlier in the thread, and I didn't know the PHB specifically described leather armour in this way; well done PHB authors!). However, I can't find any information on how widespread it was. As I try to go for medieval-ness in my game-world, I'd be loathe to re-introduce linen armour from the ancient world, but of course in a fantasy setting it's at least a possibility.

I agree on wearing the padding to sleep in; I wouldn't allow PCs to sleep in Cuir Bouilli either; can't be any more comfortable than plate or chain. One or two people in this thread have said that soldiers can sleep in armour, but historically soldiers didn't generally sleep in chain or plate armour, even when on campaign, and if it wasn't a problem they would have done so. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're not going to get the benefits of a full rest if you do so. This is all if you want to go with "realistic" historicity, of course.

 

[aramis erak]

Yeah, you seem to be right about Cuir Bouilli (I forgot about it earlier in the thread, and I didn't know the PHB specifically described leather armour in this way; well done PHB authors!). However, I can't find any information on how widespread it was. As I try to go for medieval-ness in my game-world, I'd be loathe to re-introduce linen armour from the ancient world, but of course in a fantasy setting it's at least a possibility.

I agree on wearing the padding to sleep in; I wouldn't allow PCs to sleep in Cuir Bouilli either; can't be any more comfortable than plate or chain. One or two people in this thread have said that soldiers can sleep in armour, but historically soldiers didn't generally sleep in chain or plate armour, even when on campaign, and if it wasn't a problem they would have done so. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're not going to get the benefits of a full rest if you do so. This is all if you want to go with "realistic" historicity, of course.

Rigid leather isn't really rigid. It's less rigid than plate by far. And I've slept in rigid leather. It's no worse than sleeping in one's web gear (ALICE gear, or current acronymic equivalent)

 

[Grainger]

Rigid leather isn't really rigid. It's less rigid than plate by far. And I've slept in rigid leather. It's no worse than sleeping in one's web gear (ALICE gear, or current acronymic equivalent)

Well, as I understand it, it's debatable how Cuir Bouilli was exactly made, so we're speculating as to its properties (people have made versions of it, but we don't know what is authentic). From my (limited) reading on the subject, it was most likely similar in rigidity to plate... but I don't think anyone knows, really. Do you any references for it being much softer than plate? I'd be interested to see them.

 

[Zaruthustran]

This is a good link on water-hardened leather: http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/Perfect_Armor_Improved.htm

I've handled hardened leather armor from both techniques (water and bee). The stiffness varied, but in general I'd compare it to plastic. Hard, but not completely inflexible. Less stiff than steel, certainly.

In any event: it's certainly possible to sleep in it. It's no Craftmattic Adjustable Bed, but it does not prevent unconsciousness.

 

[aramis erak]

Well, as I understand it, it's debatable how Cuir Bouilli was exactly made, so we're speculating as to its properties (people have made versions of it, but we don't know what is authentic). From my (limited) reading on the subject, it was most likely similar in rigidity to plate... but I don't think anyone knows, really. Do you any references for it being much softer than plate? I'd be interested to see them.

Considering that immersion in boiling oil generally renders the leather fragile, and in oil under 200°F softenes leather, it's a lame choice for armor. (Oh, the pun-ishment.*) Cuir boulli probably was not in oil. (And boiling untreated hides in oil is how you make cracklins and pork rhinds.)

I've seen and handled a variety of hardened leathers. None of them are even close to the rigidity of even 18 gage mild steel. They do a fine job of spreading impact and reducing felt energy, however. And that's what an armor needs to do. I've personally used water hardening, cyanoacrylate hardening, and hot wax hardening. I've worn baked waxed leather armor, and water-hardened leather. The one experiment I've seen with oil-boiling tanned leather resulted in inedible rhinds...

I've made and used bucklers of 16-18oz stiff moosehide - to get something that can take a blow on the edge, 2 layers, riveted every 3 inches throughout the piece. It WILL stop a swung broadsword... but not in the same manner as a wood or metal buckler. And it will have a nasty gash after.

Pine resin can be used to harden leather; I know someone who does that. It's a bit stiff - but not quite as stiff as water hardened rawhide. Compares to waxing for its effects. Lacquer has similar effects. Cyanoacrylate glue does better still. But still flexible stuff.

Hammering can stiffen leather. Wet it, hammer it, let it dry to shape. This is how sole-leather is made. works best on vegetable tanned, but works with chromium tanned as well.

Rawhide, when wet then allowed to dry in the sun, shrinks and gets stiff. Think doggy chew toys. That's about as good as it gets for actual stiffness of a single layer. Dry edge weighted over a form for best results. The large (1' long) "Rawhide bones" for dogs are enough rawhide for a decent pair of vambraces. (I've worn vambraces made from it.) Once formed, it's best to cold wax it or varnish it. (Hot waxing risks deforming it.)

Oh, the fun things one learns from doing one's own armor work.

In all seriousness, the SCA and several other recrudescence groups are doing a lot of experimentation, and working from a lot of period recipes. And getting materials with the promised qualities. None of them approach the rigidity of metal. At hardest, think plastic buckets of similar thickness.

Oh, and if you have a dog's rawhide "bone" to hand, and need a cast, soak it in hot to the touch water (about 120°F) for about 20 minutes, then undo the knots, and unroll it, wrap it around the limb loosely, pin it, and let it dry. It shrinks as it dries, so don't do it tightly.

Oh, and Alaska Natives spittle-and-chew harden boot-leather... and you don't want to think about their tanning process...
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Some good reads on the matter:
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/leather/hl.html
http://www.jeanturner.co.uk/static-content/tutorials/CuirBouilliTechnique.pdf

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*a lame being a strip of leather or metal used in articulation points of armors.

 

[Zaruthustran]

One or two people in this thread have said that soldiers can sleep in armour, but historically soldiers didn't generally sleep in chain or plate armour, even when on campaign, and if it wasn't a problem they would have done so. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you're not going to get the benefits of a full rest if you do so. This is all if you want to go with "realistic" historicity, of course.

Talk to some service members, and ask them if they've ever slept in their body armor.

Of course it's not ideal. Plate, in particular, is uncomfortable when prone (depending on construction). But it's certainly possible to sleep in plate armor, for a short stretch of time (a night or two). The only reason to deny the benefit of a night's rest would be preference in game mechanics.

If a suit of heavy armor isn't readily available to personally test out (preferred), then take a gander at a similar fantasy world to D&D: Game of Thrones, as depicted on HBO. The Hound regularly slept in his (splint) armor.

 

[Grainger]

Talk to some service members, and ask them if they've ever slept in their body armor.

Of course it's not ideal. Plate, in particular, is uncomfortable when prone (depending on construction). But it's certainly possible to sleep in plate armor, for a short stretch of time (a night or two). The only reason to deny the benefit of a night's rest would be preference in game mechanics.

If a suit of heavy armor isn't readily available to personally test out (preferred), then take a gander at a similar fantasy world to D&D: Game of Thrones, as depicted on HBO. The Hound regularly slept in his (splint) armor.

I can't comment on modern military armour, as I don't know anything about that. But historically, soldiers (from the Romans through to medieval knights) didn't sleep in their armour (again I'm not saying it never happened at all, just that it rarely did, even when an enemy force was near). For example, there are battles where Roman soldiers fought without armour because their camp was attacked. If they could have slept in armour and been well rested, they surely would have.

Note that I'm also not saying it's impossible to fall asleep in armour; just that you presumably don't get a good night's rest (again, I stress that I'm not talking about modern armour, but historical chain or plate). If there was no significant downside to keeping the armour on, historical warriors would have slept in their armour; those guys were not stupid.