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Can a hasted bladesinger cast a cantrip with the haste extra action
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<blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 8299235" data-attributes="member: 6799649"><p>PHB p192: Actions In Combat: Attack:- With this action, you can make ONE melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules which govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action.</p><p></p><p>PHB p193: Making an Attack:- I won't type the whole section here-you can check it yourself-but there are separate sub-sections for ranged attacks and melee attacks. It also allows attacks to be weapon attacks or spell attacks. This results in a grid with melee/ranged down the side and weapon/spell across the top, leaving four possibilities:-</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">melee weapon attack</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">melee spell attack</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ranged weapon attack</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ranged spell attack</li> </ul><p></p><p>It also makes clear that an unarmed strike-despite not being a weapon-uses 'melee weapon attack' out of those four choices.</p><p></p><p>It also mentions that claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part use the 'melee weapon attack' category out of those four, despite none of them being actual weapons.</p><p></p><p>Although the Attack Action allows you to make ANY of the four types of attack, you still require the MEANS to execute that attack! For a weapon attack, this is usually not difficult because you can pick up just about any object and attack with it even if that object is not an actual weapon, using the Improvised Weapon rules. Or you can choose a body part (or just Unarmed Strike).</p><p></p><p>Although rare, you can indeed use the Attack Action to make ranged spell attacks without using the Cast a Spell Action; the Sun Soul Monk's Radiant Sun Bolt being one of them. If you have this and Extra Attack, you can replace either or both with grapple/shove or anything that can replace an attack. Even melee spell attacks are useable with the Attack Action (without needing the Cast a Spell action) IF you have the means! The specter (MM p279) has Life Drain as a melee spell attack, and it takes the Attack Action, not the Cast a Spell Action, to do so.</p><p></p><p><strong><em>THESE ARE THE "GENERAL" RULES FOR ATTACK ACTIONS AND THE ATTACKS MADE USING THAT ACTION!!!</em></strong></p><p></p><p>Haste (PHB p250):- "...it gains an additional action on each of its turns. <strong>That action can be used only to to take the Attack (one weapon attack only)</strong>, Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object <strong>Action</strong>."</p><p></p><p>This part of the spell modifies the <strong>general</strong> rules regarding Attack Actions and the attacks allowed by taking this action. In this sense, the <em>haste</em> spell is the 'specific' which overrides <strong>that</strong> particular general rule.</p><p></p><p>It does this in two ways:-</p><p></p><p>1) it only allows ONE attack, just like the Attack Action itself. However, where the Attack Action <em>can</em> grant <em>more</em> than one attack IF you have something that allows you to (Extra Attack feature, Thirsting Blade invocation), <em>those features do NOT allow you to take more than one attack when using the Attack Action granted by this spell!</em></p><p>2) that attack can only be a weapon attack (melee or ranged), NOT a spell attack (melee or ranged). So Sun Soul Monks and Specters are S out of L.</p><p></p><p>Now to <strong>specific</strong> rules:-</p><p></p><p>* You can use the Attack Action to Grapple (or Shove)(PHB p195), even though neither is an Attack (no Attack Roll). If you are able to take multiple attacks with the Attack Action, this attack replaces ONE of them</p><p></p><p>This means that, as long as you are doing this as part of an Attack Action, you can freely substitute melee weapon attacks, melee spell attacks, ranged weapon attacks, and ranged spell attacks, with Grapples and/or Shoves.</p><p></p><p>Note that although 'specific beats general', there is no rule that says 'specific beats specific'! There doesn't (usually) need to be, because by definition 'specific' rules are limited to certain circumstances.</p><p></p><p>Here's the crux: while the specific rule of the <em>haste </em>spell beats the general rule of the Attack Action, AND the specific rule of Grapple/Shove beats the general rule of the Attack Action....</p><p></p><p>....the specific rule of the <em>haste</em> spell DOES <strong>NOT </strong>beat the <em>other</em> specific rule of Grapple/Shove!</p><p></p><p>Therefore, you can indeed swap <em>haste's</em> "one weapon attack only" with a Grapple or a Shove.</p><p></p><p>We know it <em>must</em> work that way, because if it didn't work that way-that Grapple/Shove <strong>can</strong> substitute for the ONE (or maybe more) attacks allowed by taking the Attack Action-then we could <em>never Grapple or Shove at all!</em></p><p></p><p>The extra Attack Action granted by <em>haste</em> limits the number of attacks (one, not more, even if you have a feature that would allow more attacks during your Attack Action), and it limits the type of attack (melee weapon attacks and ranged weapon attacks, but not melee spell attacks or ranged spell attacks). It can do this because the types of attacks and the Attack Action are <em>general</em> rules while the <em>haste</em> spell is a specific rule that creates an exception, but <em>only in the ways it says it does!</em> You cannot add extra things that the spell doesn't say, and it says nothing about disallowing any other <em>specific</em> rule, like Grapple or Shove....</p><p></p><p>....or the Bladesinger's subclass feature which allows you to "...cast one of your cantrips in place of one (of the attacks granted by taking the Attack Action)".</p><p></p><p>This feature allows the Bladesinger to replace ONE attack with a cantrip <em>every single time he takes the Attack Action.</em></p><p></p><p>Even the extra Attack Action granted by <em>haste</em>, even the Attack Action granted by Action Surge.</p><p></p><p>On one turn a Ftr 2/Bladesinger 6 could, while <em>hasted</em>, take three Attack Actions on his turn (normal, <em>haste</em>, Action Surge) and replace one attack in <em>each</em> of those three Attack Actions with a cantrip.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arial Black, post: 8299235, member: 6799649"] PHB p192: Actions In Combat: Attack:- With this action, you can make ONE melee or ranged attack. See the "Making an Attack" section for the rules which govern attacks. Certain features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the fighter, allow you to make more than one attack with this action. PHB p193: Making an Attack:- I won't type the whole section here-you can check it yourself-but there are separate sub-sections for ranged attacks and melee attacks. It also allows attacks to be weapon attacks or spell attacks. This results in a grid with melee/ranged down the side and weapon/spell across the top, leaving four possibilities:- [LIST] [*]melee weapon attack [*]melee spell attack [*]ranged weapon attack [*]ranged spell attack [/LIST] It also makes clear that an unarmed strike-despite not being a weapon-uses 'melee weapon attack' out of those four choices. It also mentions that claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part use the 'melee weapon attack' category out of those four, despite none of them being actual weapons. Although the Attack Action allows you to make ANY of the four types of attack, you still require the MEANS to execute that attack! For a weapon attack, this is usually not difficult because you can pick up just about any object and attack with it even if that object is not an actual weapon, using the Improvised Weapon rules. Or you can choose a body part (or just Unarmed Strike). Although rare, you can indeed use the Attack Action to make ranged spell attacks without using the Cast a Spell Action; the Sun Soul Monk's Radiant Sun Bolt being one of them. If you have this and Extra Attack, you can replace either or both with grapple/shove or anything that can replace an attack. Even melee spell attacks are useable with the Attack Action (without needing the Cast a Spell action) IF you have the means! The specter (MM p279) has Life Drain as a melee spell attack, and it takes the Attack Action, not the Cast a Spell Action, to do so. [B][I]THESE ARE THE "GENERAL" RULES FOR ATTACK ACTIONS AND THE ATTACKS MADE USING THAT ACTION!!![/I][/B] Haste (PHB p250):- "...it gains an additional action on each of its turns. [B]That action can be used only to to take the Attack (one weapon attack only)[/B], Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object [B]Action[/B]." This part of the spell modifies the [B]general[/B] rules regarding Attack Actions and the attacks allowed by taking this action. In this sense, the [I]haste[/I] spell is the 'specific' which overrides [B]that[/B] particular general rule. It does this in two ways:- 1) it only allows ONE attack, just like the Attack Action itself. However, where the Attack Action [I]can[/I] grant [I]more[/I] than one attack IF you have something that allows you to (Extra Attack feature, Thirsting Blade invocation), [I]those features do NOT allow you to take more than one attack when using the Attack Action granted by this spell![/I] 2) that attack can only be a weapon attack (melee or ranged), NOT a spell attack (melee or ranged). So Sun Soul Monks and Specters are S out of L. Now to [B]specific[/B] rules:- * You can use the Attack Action to Grapple (or Shove)(PHB p195), even though neither is an Attack (no Attack Roll). If you are able to take multiple attacks with the Attack Action, this attack replaces ONE of them This means that, as long as you are doing this as part of an Attack Action, you can freely substitute melee weapon attacks, melee spell attacks, ranged weapon attacks, and ranged spell attacks, with Grapples and/or Shoves. Note that although 'specific beats general', there is no rule that says 'specific beats specific'! There doesn't (usually) need to be, because by definition 'specific' rules are limited to certain circumstances. Here's the crux: while the specific rule of the [I]haste [/I]spell beats the general rule of the Attack Action, AND the specific rule of Grapple/Shove beats the general rule of the Attack Action.... ....the specific rule of the [I]haste[/I] spell DOES [B]NOT [/B]beat the [I]other[/I] specific rule of Grapple/Shove! Therefore, you can indeed swap [I]haste's[/I] "one weapon attack only" with a Grapple or a Shove. We know it [I]must[/I] work that way, because if it didn't work that way-that Grapple/Shove [B]can[/B] substitute for the ONE (or maybe more) attacks allowed by taking the Attack Action-then we could [I]never Grapple or Shove at all![/I] The extra Attack Action granted by [I]haste[/I] limits the number of attacks (one, not more, even if you have a feature that would allow more attacks during your Attack Action), and it limits the type of attack (melee weapon attacks and ranged weapon attacks, but not melee spell attacks or ranged spell attacks). It can do this because the types of attacks and the Attack Action are [I]general[/I] rules while the [I]haste[/I] spell is a specific rule that creates an exception, but [I]only in the ways it says it does![/I] You cannot add extra things that the spell doesn't say, and it says nothing about disallowing any other [I]specific[/I] rule, like Grapple or Shove.... ....or the Bladesinger's subclass feature which allows you to "...cast one of your cantrips in place of one (of the attacks granted by taking the Attack Action)". This feature allows the Bladesinger to replace ONE attack with a cantrip [I]every single time he takes the Attack Action.[/I] Even the extra Attack Action granted by [I]haste[/I], even the Attack Action granted by Action Surge. On one turn a Ftr 2/Bladesinger 6 could, while [I]hasted[/I], take three Attack Actions on his turn (normal, [I]haste[/I], Action Surge) and replace one attack in [I]each[/I] of those three Attack Actions with a cantrip. [/QUOTE]
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Can a hasted bladesinger cast a cantrip with the haste extra action
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