Can a pinned medusa use it's petrifying gaze?

[DamionW]

I had a grappling-oriented fighter PC one game. He was a crazy thug that just liked brawling, wrestling, and bashing things with his 2x4 of frost. Our party ran into a medusa and her minions. Disregarding the fact it was crazy and stupid, my PC went right up, passed his Fort Save and proceeded to grapple and Pin the medusa (all occording to the RAW). My DM still gave the medusa opportunities to use her gaze on me after that. I disagreed, but he said they were practiced in techniques to make people look. My question is, if pinning results in immobility and lack of speech at the attackers option, could she still use her gaze attack? Thoughts?

 

[Infiniti2000]

The actions allowed during grappling are limited. The actions allowed while you pin someone are even more limited. The actions allowed when you are pinned are even more limited.

When grappling, the one thing you can't do is use a special ability (such as a medusa's gaze attack). You can cast a spell (limited) or activate a magical item (limited), but you cannot use a special ability unless it's part of one of the allowed actions. This limitation is extended to the two pinning conditions.

While the medusa therefore cannot actively use her gaze, you still must make your save as a reactive action to her gaze. If she could actively use her gaze and chose to, you'd have to make two saves per round.

 

[the Jester]

A gaze attack doesn't even require an action to use. Each potential victim makes a save each round, and the medusa can in addition use a standard action to employ it.

If I was dming that encounter, I might have let you attempt a grapple check to force her head down or something so that she couldn't use her gaze attack for a round (once you had her pinned), but that is definitely a house rule.

 

[DamionW]

I'm understanding the two checks thing, but I don't understand how if she's:

1) Immobile by my choosing
2) Unable to use her special ability as an action because the grappling state prevents her from directing her gaze at me

that I still would have to reflexively save. I'm choosing her not to move, including not having her eyes in a position to use the gaze. Why should I have to save?

 

[Artoomis]

I'm understanding the two checks thing, but I don't understand how if she's:

1) Immobile by my choosing
2) Unable to use her special ability as an action because the grappling state prevents her from directing her gaze at me

that I still would have to reflexively save. I'm choosing her not to move, including not having her eyes in a position to use the gaze. Why should I have to save?

I agree that this is a special case, and would adjudicate it as such. I'd rule that it is within the spirit of the rules for "pin" to allow that you have pinnned her with her face facing down and are preventing her from turning her head. Also, I'd give the snakes a +2 circumstance bonus to strike you as your hand is obviously in amongst them to hold her head still. Maybe even a +4 bonus - it's really hard to miss when you deliberately put your hand in amongst them.

 

[DamionW]

I agree that this is a special case, and would adjudicate it as such. I'd rule that it is within the spirit of the rules for "pin" to allow that you have pinnned her with her face facing down and are preventing her from turning her head. Also, I'd give the snakes a +2 circumstance bonus to strike you as your hand is obviously in amongst them to hold her head still. Maybe even a +4 bonus - it's really hard to miss when you deliberately put your hand in amongst them.

That's fair enough. Hadn't even noticed the snakes getting bite attacks, but yeah, I could see them wriggling free and biting me. I just think having to make constant Fort saves because somehow she's pulling an Excorcist maneuver and whirling her eyes around the back of her neck to look at me seemed wrong.

 

[ForceUser]

I don't have my MM handy, but you guys might be overlooking the fact that the gaze attack is a supernatural ability and thus, does not require concentration to activate (much like the druid's wild shape ability v.3.5). If I'm remembering this correctly, that means that by the RAW a medusa can easily use her gaze attack while grappled.

 

[DamionW]

I don't have my MM handy, but you guys might be overlooking the fact that the gaze attack is a supernatural ability and thus, does not require concentration to activate (much like the druid's wild shape ability v.3.5). If I'm remembering this correctly, that means that by the RAW a medusa can easily use her gaze attack while grappled.

I have my MM handy, and yes it is a supernatural ability, but activating it requires a standard actions, and "Use Special Ability" is not on the list of actions that are allowed when grappling. The bigger argument comes from the fact that creatures with the gaze quality require a save/round just from meeting their gaze, regardless if they want to activate it specifically on an opponent (resulting in a second save). I'm saying that if one is "immobile" and "at my mercy" per the description of pinned, they would not have the opportunity to move in a fashion that their gaze would meet my eyes. So not only could they not activate their special ability as a standard action, I do not have to make a save every round because I'm not in danger of looking in their eyes (the same as the blindfolded stipulation. No eye contact can be made).

An even bigger question is what is defined by "immobile"? That's not a term explicitly defined, but used in pinning. Common sense says "unable to move," but does that mean only not able to traverse square to square, or does it take up a broader meaning of not able to do any bodily movement not related to resisting the pin? That's the sticking point.

 

[Lord Wyrm]

Probably best just to close your eyes.

A few solutions:

Technically yes she can use her gaze in the "it hits everyone once per round" fashion and in the standard action gaze.

House rule: Two successful consective pins allows you to attempt a free coup-de-grace on the grappled opponent. One of my personal rules that makes tight brawls real deadly. Come to think of it my campaigns on the whole are just deadly.

House rule: Gaze attacks work in a grapple but the save DC is at a penalty (i.e. DC15 as opposed to DC18)

 

[Infiniti2000]

1) Immobile by my choosing

Immobile doesn't necessarily make her lose the gaze attack.

2) Unable to use her special ability as an action because the grappling state prevents her from directing her gaze at me

Nothing about the grappling state prevents her from directing her gaze at you. You're stating a conclusion that supports your stance without providing support for the conclusion. The fact is that the gaze attack does not even require an action on her part. You'd need something that specifically, and explicitly nullifies a gaze attack. Since something like 'covering her eyes with your hand' or 'turning her head to face down' or whatever is not explicitly covered in the rules, you'll have to deal with the DM on that issue, but per the RAW, she/he is free to rule that you can't stop the gaze. Artoomis's ruling on it would be fine, and strangely enough, similarly supported (or unsupported if you wish to label it that way) in the rules.

I just think having to make constant Fort saves because somehow she's pulling an Excorcist maneuver and whirling her eyes around the back of her neck to look at me seemed wrong.

Nothing about being 'pinned' means that she is facing away from you, or even that she is prone and facing the floor. I think you're applying conditions that are not necessarily given de facto by merely being pinned. The medusa is not helpless, remember.

If I'm remembering this correctly, that means that by the RAW a medusa can easily use her gaze attack while grappled.

Actually, by RAW, while grappled you cannot take actions besides those explicitly listed.