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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9588692" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Problem:</p><p></p><p>WotC itself explicitly (through Crawford) said parties weren't fighting enough combats, and weren't taking enough short rests. This explicitly and specifically affected short-rest classes.</p><p></p><p></p><p>...I'm sorry. What?</p><p></p><p><em>Action Surge</em> has a chance to single-handedly end combats now? What?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I have done no such thing. I have said that as a Wizard, you need to accept that sometimes your spells will fail. Whenever I do calculations of expected damage taken or expected damage output, I do exactly the same thing: presuming that SOME attacks will fail and other attacks will succeed, but that you should always continue <em>making attack rolls</em>, because the chance that you might miss is 100% worth it.</p><p></p><p>How is that in any way treating one side different from the other?</p><p></p><p></p><p>....</p><p></p><p>So now it's not just Action Surge. It's <em>two or three entire characters</em> spending Action Surge.</p><p></p><p>Do you not see the problem here?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Kill a single monster--yes. If it isn't a massive sack of HP...which most "solo"-type monsters <em>are</em> in 5e.</p><p></p><p>But now who's talking about luck? You aren't just presuming some luck. You're presuming extremely good luck to get there--hits on all of your attacks, with some being crits. And even then, you're not just assuming Action Surge, because a level 3 Fighter that uses Action Surge gets...one extra attack. If a <em>single</em> extra attack "ends a fight" then it wasn't worthy of being called a fight in the first place. You're talking about <em>at least</em> a 5th level Fighter, and probably an 11th level or higher Fighter...which means if we're comparing apples to apples, we should be looking at an 11th level Wizard as well. Who can bring tools <em>far</em> more deadly and devastating than a mere <em>fear</em> spell.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I mean, if we're going to talk about what is likely to happen in a well-designed game, then any conversation where that game is 5.x is going to be <em>extremely short</em>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9588692, member: 6790260"] Problem: WotC itself explicitly (through Crawford) said parties weren't fighting enough combats, and weren't taking enough short rests. This explicitly and specifically affected short-rest classes. ...I'm sorry. What? [I]Action Surge[/I] has a chance to single-handedly end combats now? What? I have done no such thing. I have said that as a Wizard, you need to accept that sometimes your spells will fail. Whenever I do calculations of expected damage taken or expected damage output, I do exactly the same thing: presuming that SOME attacks will fail and other attacks will succeed, but that you should always continue [I]making attack rolls[/I], because the chance that you might miss is 100% worth it. How is that in any way treating one side different from the other? .... So now it's not just Action Surge. It's [I]two or three entire characters[/I] spending Action Surge. Do you not see the problem here? Kill a single monster--yes. If it isn't a massive sack of HP...which most "solo"-type monsters [I]are[/I] in 5e. But now who's talking about luck? You aren't just presuming some luck. You're presuming extremely good luck to get there--hits on all of your attacks, with some being crits. And even then, you're not just assuming Action Surge, because a level 3 Fighter that uses Action Surge gets...one extra attack. If a [I]single[/I] extra attack "ends a fight" then it wasn't worthy of being called a fight in the first place. You're talking about [I]at least[/I] a 5th level Fighter, and probably an 11th level or higher Fighter...which means if we're comparing apples to apples, we should be looking at an 11th level Wizard as well. Who can bring tools [I]far[/I] more deadly and devastating than a mere [I]fear[/I] spell. I mean, if we're going to talk about what is likely to happen in a well-designed game, then any conversation where that game is 5.x is going to be [I]extremely short[/I]. [/QUOTE]
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