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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 9700493" data-attributes="member: 2525">Arise foul thread! OK, so not too old. Just a month off from being fresh. It's still twitching a bit at this stage I think.Treantmonk just released (on Patreon) or is about to release (on Youtube) a test experiment he ran.Five 17th level single-class identical Champion Fighters (he ran as DM), vs five 18th level "whatever the players want to run" PCs the players ran (I'll call that Anything). He ran this for five different groups.Result: The 5 fighters wiped the floor with the Anything groups 4 times out of 5. And the one that won was lucky because it depended on just one PC choosing a particular subclass (more below).DISCLAIMER:[spoiler]Now he is not saying or implying there is no Martial/Caster divide, or that this is conclusive, or typical. He specifies PCs are built to fight monsters and not other PCs so that's atypical. The Arena setting is atypical. The requirements of level and magic items and starting spots are all not necessarily representative.All he's saying is this is one interesting data point of many which, to him, shows a high level Fighter and specifically a high level ranged Fighter under 2024 rules might not be less powerful than a caster sometimes, or less powerful in 2024 as you might think. And that a high level Ranged fighter can dish out the single-target damage effectively due to damage per hit and quantity of attacks per round.He also thinks Great Weapon Master is probably better now than the -5, +10 version (and 2014 Sharpshooter, which now is combined in this one as this one applies to both melee and ranged heavy weapon attacks), and that the +6 damage with no penalty to attack averages more damage per round than the old version with the -5 to attack.[/spoiler]Here are some details:Map from Vecna Age of Ruin campaign. I am putting it in spoilers in case you don't want to see one map from that campaign:[spoiler][ATTACH=full]410822[/ATTACH][/spoiler]The Anything group were played by optimizers. Often multi-classed. Plenty of casters.The Fighter-only group had almost the same level of access to equipment, though slightly less access than the Anything group. The Anything group got the same or better magic items.Here are the details on the fighters, in spoilers to save space:[Spoiler]17th Level Fighter (Champion)Background: Guard (Alert feat, Stealth and Investigation skills)Species: Goliath (Cloud Giant - Bonus action short range teleport Proficiency x Day)Ability Scores after ASIs: Str: 20, Dex: 20, Con: 16, Int: 8, Wis: 9, Chr: 8 (Note: I suspect he could have taken a lower Str, focused on just the bow and increased Con and/or Wis, and done maybe slightly better)Saves: Str +11, Dex +11, Con +9, Int Wis and Chr -1 each (used Indomitable and Mage Slayer on the mental stats most often to succeed)HP: 157Initiative: +11 with advantage (+5 Dex, Alert Feat, Remarkable Athlete) This meant these PCs usually won initiativeFighter Traits: Perception and Athletic skillsFighting Style: Blind Fighting at 1st level, Archery at 7thSecond Wind: enough uses to use it basically every round of this fight if they have a bonus action to useWeapons:+1 longbow, +1 greatswordArmor: Unknown, presumably Plate?Weapon Masteries: Greatsword (Graze), Longbow (Slow), some others that were meaninglessImproved Crit: Eventually to 18-20 by 15th levelAction Surge: 2 available (second gained at level 17), used on the first two roundsRemarkable Athlete: Advantage on Initiative and Athletics ChecksFeats:Great Weapon Master (All longbow and greatsword hits add your +6 Prof Bonus to damage, also had a benefit (Hew) for just greatsword that I think he never used)ASIs for Str and DexMage Slayer: Turn one save failure o Int, Wis or Chr into success, better at breaking caster concentrationResilient DexterityTactical Master (Level 9): Can replace an attacks Mastery with Push, Sap, or Slow instead of the one it normally usesIndomitable: 3 uses (Level 9, Level 13, Level 17), each allows you to reroll a failed save and add your Fighter levels (+17) to the new result.Heroic Warrior (10th level): New Heroic Inspiration for every combat turn you start without it.Extra Attack: 2 Attacks per turn (5th and 11th level)Studied Attacks (13th level): Advantage on next attack roll after a missAttacks (3 per round, 6 when action surging), Reroll first miss with Heroic Inspiration, some Advantage availableGreatsword +12 Attack, 2d6+12 Damage. Average damage 19 on a hitLongbow: +14 Attack, 1d8+12 Damage, Average damage 17 on a hit[/spoiler]Each Fighter typically went first in intuitive or at least very early, did about 68 Damage per round, focused fire to drop one PC at a time. In every Test, the Fighters had at least two Anything PCs down in round 1, usually before the downed PCs had a turn.Anything-PCs usually surrendered by the end of round 2The one Anything group that won, had a Forge Cleric (straight class). At level 18 they get resistance to Bludgeoning, Slashing and Piercing damage, which seriously challenged the Fighter group. The Cleric had a Con save of +9, so never failed a concentration check against the Resisted damage. They also cast Conjure Celestial, which damages all Fighters every round, and heals all Anything PCs every round.I thought this was an interesting experiment and worth noting here. Again, nothing conclusive. But it does make me suspect the issue with the high level Martial / Caster divide might not be as meaningful as previously commonly thought.</blockquote>

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