Can a system that allows Players to make any magic item in D&D be balanced?

[ccs]

Hey Eltab,

The question of balance for this craft is not for the player, as any advantage is a net positive, but balanced for the Game Master. Can a player use this craft without breaking the game for the DM or making the DM do too much work? I would argue no, that while the player can make almost anything they want, the GM still has fundamental control over the input and output of magical items. (Gems and Anti-Artifices)

So you wrote 19 pages of stuff on crafting & concluded that it's still going to be a hassle for the DM and require their involvement?
Lol; I could've just told you that....

 

[John Out West]

Oh I misspoke. I said "No' to "Does the DM jave to do too much work." I think the system works well, but am looking for other opinions.

 

[Immortal Sun]

Am I a terrible person because I see the Anti-Artifice as preferred result over the magical item? I mean really when I read through these rules I wondered just exactly what I needed to put together to make the most powerful Anti-Artifice possible and while it would obviously require a lot of effort to accomplish, I feel like producing a night-unstabbple magical creature would be a lot more fun than producing a moderately powerful magical sword.

 

[John Out West]

I completely agree Immortal Sun. When I introduced this into my world I started backwards rationalizing that Artificing is where most of the aberrant monsters like Gibbering Mouthers and Beholders came from! The best thing you could do is make a lot of artifices, as Anti-Artifices tend to merge and become super powerful.

There was also a subclass of Wizard in Westbound that was Lazuration Magic, which let the wizards create monsters. You didn't get a cool item, but your creations also didn't try to kill you.

Originally the doc also contained lore that said that Artificing was impossible, but creating an Anti-Artifice wasn't, so Artificers essentially worked backwards and created an Anti-Artifice, which had the result of creating the desired Artifice.

 

[5ekyu]

Hey Luis, you're pretty much describing both the Artificing system as is, as well as the Magic Item system in Westbound, the Tabletop RPG I made before this. its so eerily accurate that I feel like you might be trolling me...

Hey Blue, I agree with you, but only in that we seem to differ in our fundamental philosophies. I agree that, in a Dungeon Crawl scenario where Combat is king, anything beyond the Gold+EXP equation will tip the scales one way or the other.

However, in an Open World scenario with a balance of combat, exploration, and social interactions, there is no "Balancing Math," as the open world aspect means that the players adjust to the world and not the other way around. In this case, gaining power does not increase the difficulty of the world, but the difficulty of challenges the players choose to seek. Rats do not become more fierce, instead the encounter is skipped as it is deemed too trivial. This is the philosophy I typically use.

Now, when I said "Balanced for the GM," I meant that Artificing does not cause the game to come to a halt, generally because a player became too powerful. The question of Balance in this case is, "Does Artifcing break the game?" or another way of putting it, "Does Artificing make the job of the GM harder?" I would argue no, but i would love to hear what you have to say about it.

Similarly, Thaumogenesis cannot be quantified in numbers or points, but in risk and fear. Would you risk creating a powerful creature, or do you fear for your safety. In my limited experience in testing the system, most players give in to fear rather than create a magic item. In a Dungeon Crawl scenario the creation of an Anti-Artifice would be balanced by the increase in difficulty derived from the new enemy Anti-Artifice that joins the enemy ranks.

" In my limited experience in testing the system, most players give in to fear rather than create a magic item. In a Dungeon Crawl scenario the creation of an Anti-Artifice would be balanced by the increase in difficulty derived from the new enemy Anti-Artifice that joins the enemy ranks."

Here we get to the loaded title... "allows" is meaningless in this context because it might be "allowed" on paper but the GM might never give them both the requirements and the desire or need (too high a risk vs reward and we get along fine without the gadget.)

So, yeah, you are allowed to create the vorpal sword using the rune tile v, o, r, p, a, l but the v tile is under a den of polyamorous tarrasques and the r tile is missing since that flood - and I mean **that** flood.

That said, the faustian offer of juicing up the effect but unleashing horrors is interesting and very much gives a mystical feel to it. Tie it in with potent entities and it sounds overall quite fun.

But, might go further, linking item, creature and caster in a Dragonheart linkage where damage to any one hurts the other two.

 

[John Out West]

Hey 5ekyu,

I too am excited about the Anti-Artifice feature, especially in how it differentiates Artificing as a craft from other crafts. I like to relate it to going on a Reverse-Quest, where you get the reward first and then have to fight the monster later, except the monster is hunting you.

I cant really relate to the "GM never giving requirements" as the only hard to find reagent are Gemstones, and even with weak gems an Artificer has a ton of options. An artificer hoping to make a Vorpal Sword is like an alchemist trying to make an Elixir of Immortality: Sure you CAN, but it would take a series of adventures to acquire the ingredients. Meanwhile, if an Artificer were to find a weak gem and some creativity can make some really spectacular artifices.

I made a few Artifices for the Players in my game a while back, so i'll share them to give you an idea of what you can do with the weakest gems possible.
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Ring of the Guilty Handshake
The creature touching the Ring has their sense of touch overloaded, and it is disabled for 6 seconds. Activates by Striking the ring against a creature.

Requires any Amethyst.
Requires any Ring.
Requires 1 Brain of any creature and some of their Skin.
Requires eight hours to create the Circle of Power.

Creates an Anti-Artifice who is incapable of seeing illusions or hearing lies, who is cruel, and is incapable of being struck by physical attacks. The Anti-Artifice is also an abductor, and will attempt to steal people away while they are defenseless.
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Ring of Wait, Whats That Over There?
Every visible creature within 5ft will hear (A Specific Thing) for one round at a section of the floor that you can see. The ring is activated by pointing, while at the same time saying: "Wait, whats that over there?" Contains 16 charges, and uses 1 every time it is used. Recharges 2d8 every morning.

Requires any Amethyst
Requires a Ring made from materials found on the ground.
Requires the Brain of a creature and their Ears and Eyes
Requires a piece of a Specific Thing that sounds strange.
Requires a living fairy in a bottle.

Creates an Anti-Artifice who is incapable of seeing illusions or hearing lies. The Anti-Artifice will make slaves of the Artificer's friends and allies, and can easily break the will of others. The Anti-Artifice can easily determine the shape of all items on a person with a simple visual scan. The Anti-Artifice cannot speak or communicate verbally, and can choose to not make noise from their actions or movements. The Anti-Artifice is a shapeshifter, and can transform in objects, preferring to transform into floors. The Anti-Artifice will seek out (The Specific Thing) and will seek to possess it, if possible.
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Ring of Gentle Regrets
When the bearer of this ring becomes wounded, it instantly restores 1d6HP to the bearer. Requires Attunement. This ring has 16 charges, and uses 1 charge whenever it is activated. Regains 2d8 charges at the beginning of every day.

Requires any Emerald.
Requires any Ring.
Requires four hours to create a Circle of Power.

This Anti-Artifice is Immortal. It is completely impossible to kill, and cannot gain or lose health or vitality. The Anti-artifice cannot become wounded, and will bleed sand. Those who perceive the Anti-Artifice will see it as the last user of the Artifice.
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Ring of False Friendship
Whenever a creature looks upon this ring, every visible creature within 5ft will consider the wearer as Friend for six seconds.

Requires any Aquamarine
Requires any Ring
Requires a Rabbits Foot
Requires the Brain and Eyes of a creature.
Requires four hours to prepare a Circle of Power

The Anti-Artifice is a Mastermind. They are completely immune to being manipulated psychologically through either magical or non-magical means. The Anti-Artifice is especially good at predicting the behaviors of others, as well as planning attacks and traps. The Anti-Artifice will make slaves of the Artificer's friends and allies, and can easily break the will of others. The Anti-Artifice will attempt to harm your friends before you. The Anti-Artifice takes pleasure in torturing creatures it senses.

 

[John Out West]

With some help from you guys I cut some of the fat from the Artificing system. You can see it here.

I did this shortening by adding in a half-page that let me remove a large chunk from every school of magic, and allow them to create their own powers. I posted the half-page below, and I would love if you would try to see how it feels from the perspective of a player or a GM, and if you can find a way to break it I would be appreciative!


Secret Powers:
Artificers can potentially learn, find, or create new Powers that are not on the list below. These new powers have endless possibilities and generally adhere to the following guidelines:
(Damage) Is always used when determining the potential of damage, healing, Increases or decreases of maximum health.
(Distance) is used to determine the distance potential of a Power, how far away, long, wide, or tall the effect it creates is.
(Duration) is used to determine how long the effects of an impermanent Power last.
(Attunement) is required by items that are difficult to control, give stat bonuses, resistances, or involve an artifice’s user.
(Charges) are used by taxing Powers, such as healing, changing the form of animate targets, and resurrection.
(Feeble) is assigned to any power that could potentially defeat a healthy creature instantly under ordinary circumstances.
Artifices use magic energy to manipulate the world, but they cannot create matter. Conjurers can bring water from here to there, and Transmuters can turn air to water, but nothing can turn energy into matter.