Can DnD ever approximate the heroic literature?

[Wuxia]

Actually, I cannot but agree with all you say in your "03-19-2002 08:46 PM" post. But I still think that the very tactical feel of D&D leads to players who, basically, plan more, are more concerned about details. Thus a less heroic feel, in my opinion. You did convince me that yours was at least equally valid, though.

 

[Eosin the Red]

I basically agree with you Jack.

I was in a d20 FR level game and it left a bad taste in my mouth. Currently, I run a WoT d20 game and it is going very well, and is somewhat staple heroic. The removal of tons of magic, freakish critters, and exotic smack-down characters has saved the game. After the FR game I seriously debated running the WoT game in Hero System, while I am not sure it won't end there, right now d20 (with Wounds/Vitality, DR armor, and slow progression) is working out fine.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Exalted: Heroic Fantasy, Epic Fantasy, Chinese Martial Arts Flicks, the best of mystic style Anime (Kenshin, Hakenden, Lodoss, etc), and some dang cool mythology all rolled up into one nice little roleplaying package. I'm hooked.

Sounds good, but the Storyteller System really, really sucks.

D&D/d20 can do most of those styles anyway.

If you want to play D&D like Rainbow Six, that's YOUR choice. Why are the dragons skulking? That's the DM's choice. D&D can be played in many different styles.

It's important that the Players and the DM agree on what style to use.

Geoff.

 

[Frostmarrow]

I've always longed for a more Rainbow Sixish campaign. A campaign where more than one character knows how to move silently and climb walls. With 3ed, finally, my friends are beginning to learn and appreciate that approach. Needless to say, I love it. What I want more now is information gathering and slowly we are learning that too.

I think it's foolish to rush headlong into an unknown dungeon in search of treasure. I think the game is much more rewarding when the characters get to plan what to do and how to do it. Moreover I get more buck out of my bought modules since the players, during planning, makes use of whatever maps and other hand-outs are available.

The problem with dragons is that they must lose just as much as a goblin must. If the dragon or goblin wins you risk the entire campaign. I'm currently thinking about how to fix that. It seems all monsters and or NPCs are destined to die whithin seconds of the character's enter the stage. I want NPC to survive and develop. I want the PCs to socialize with the opposition and perhaps even celebrate christmas whith them.

Currently I'm thinking about developing humanity statistic which should have a detrimental effect on characters who kill a lot. Sort of like how real soldiers get messed up in their heads after seeing too much combat. When you kill you must pay a steep price. Perhaps the Sanity statistic of CoC d20 is what I'm looking for? The biggest problem about this is that I must make a list of all critters and how you'd feel about killing them cross-referenced with alignment and race. It's just too much, I'm afraid.

 

[Storminator]

Dragons have to be sneaky because DMs balance encounters to their PCs. This makes for an even match, and then tactics are extremely important.

If you want dragons that can burn and slay without thinking, just use a dragon 8-10 CRs above your party level. It'll never have to get tricky, just swoop in, Power Attack at +50 damage, pulverize that poor fighter, and continue its Flyby Attack. Repeat as needed.

Then roll up some new PCs, having suitably impressed them with how powerful dragons are.

PS

 

[Desdichado]

Tsyr:
Exalted: Heroic Fantasy, Epic Fantasy, Chinese Martial Arts Flicks, the best of mystic style Anime (Kenshin, Hakenden, Lodoss, etc), and some dang cool mythology all rolled up into one nice little roleplaying package. I'm hooked.

All that anime and martial arts stuff is what turned me off from it. I guess White Wolf needed to create a fantasy game with an edge, but that's not the edge I was looking for.

 

[BluWolf]

I would say the biggest contributor to the 3 second NPC is the DM.

If you want to create lasting nemesis NPCs or just normal NPCs that can live through and encounter with the party, you have to plan ahead.

I would say most DMs don't hink ahead when they put their bad guys in situations against the party. A smart bad guy is going to monitor the situation at hand. If a fight breaks out he is going to weight the rsisk versus the rewards. If there is too much risk, he needs to take off and the DM needs to make sure he has a logical (by the rules) way of escaping.

I don't want my main bad guys dieing unles it means something to the story. If htey are not around for the climax players don't get those heroic opportunities to make those noble sacrifices.

As far as dragons go, my players do not go looking for them because they know they will most likely die. And not from traps and tactics. From sheer combative overload. But then I tend to run lower powered games.

 

[Gargoyle]

I think D&D has the capacity for heroic play, but it certainly doesn't encourage it as much as it could. Games like Feng Shui and Torg were built around a cinematic style of play and encourage heroism, while D&D was designed out of a miniatures war game and encourages clever tactics and min/maxing. I like both styles of play, for the record.

A d20 game that kept fast paced, heroic gameplay in mind, where foolish heroism is rewarded, would be cool. And I think it's do-able.

 

[Jeremy Crawford]

Possible vs. Optimal

I would agree with those who have stated that heroism is possible in D&D, but I would also maintain that D&D, as published, is not an optimal system for high heroics.

I've come to this view after conducting a two-year experiment with one of my campaigns. The campaign is set in a quasi-Celtic realm and has a decidely heroic thrust. Here's the experiment: to see if the game system used for the campaign has a noteworthy effect on the mood and patterns of play in the campaign.

My group has used four systems for the campaign so far, in the following order:

1. AD&D (2nd ed.)
2. SAGA
3. D&D (3rd ed.)
4. BESM

Throughout the experiment, the campaign's plot has remained consistent, as have the characters, as far as each system would allow.

With each system, and this will come as no surprise to most of you, the mood and patterns of play have changed notably. Sometimes the changes have been subtle, but they've always been noticable.

My group's current view is that SAGA and BESM foster high heroics more than either of the D&D editions we've used, and for that reason, we've decided to finish the campaign as a BESM campaign.

We do think D&D has many strengths, but playing tales of high heroics is not one of them.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The ganging up effect is rarely realistic or heroic. It is only effective because of gross simplifications of the mechanics.

Storminator makes a very good point. If encounters were not carefully balanced by the DM, tactics would not be so critical. And I think you would get PC mortality in keeping with the tradition of the Iliad or Mort D'Arthur. (Keep those d6's handy!)

Playing that way can be very heroic. In my experience, CoC is more heroic than D&D because you have no expectation of survival. I find it opens up roleplaying to knowing playing your PC true to character is more important than worrying about if he lives. YMMV.