This came up in my game Sunday. I figured a fiendish ape would take advantage of the helplessness and attempt the coup de grace. Some of my players think an animal wouldn't go for that maneuver. Other animals I think would be able to coup de grace would include badgers, wolverines and weasels--especially if they are fiendish.
Can fiendish animals coup de grace?
- Thread starter Dinkeldog
- Start date
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Absolutely I think a lot of non-fiendish animals would CDG. If something is fighting from rage or from hunger, it's likely to stick with its instincts and try to annihilate an opponent.
Fiendish animals are even meaner.
Daniel
Fiendish animals are even meaner.
Daniel
ThirdWizard
First Post
Yeah, I would say that most animals would coup de grace. The wolf going for the jugular, or the wolverine attacking until dead. If they're fighting, they're fighting to kill, which means that an animal would be more likely to take out a helpless opponent than an intelligent creature, in my oppinion. An intelligent creature would realize that they were down and it would be wise to start focusing on a more healthy opponent so that he could finish them off at his leisure later, but an animal (at least as I run them) tend to focus on one individual at a time until that individual is dead, then move onto the next target. Of course, if obviously going to lose, the animal would run away asap.
UltimaGabe
First Post
However, you all seem to be assuming that a Coup de Grace is simply attacking a helpless foe. Well, it isn't. A babboon is very likely to attack a helpless foe until it's dead- but what makes you think that's a Coup de Grace? A PC Fighter can attack a helpless foe until it's dead, and get huge bonuses on its attack rolls- but it isn't Coup de Grace-ing at all. Would a babboon, in the middle of a battle, refrain from attacking, to focus its strength into one strong, focused attack onto one vital point of its foe's anatomy, focusing its attention on this one point so much that it allows its other foes to get free attacks in (that is, would a babboon willingly incur attacks of opportunity)? Would a babboon be intelligent enough to do something like that?
Of course not. You are all confusing a Coup de Grace with attacking a helpless foe, which are two different things. An animal (or generally anything with an intelligence under 3) is never going to Coup de Grace while in a battle, because it requires the animal to take its attention completely from the rest of battle, incurring attacks of opportunity.
Of course not. You are all confusing a Coup de Grace with attacking a helpless foe, which are two different things. An animal (or generally anything with an intelligence under 3) is never going to Coup de Grace while in a battle, because it requires the animal to take its attention completely from the rest of battle, incurring attacks of opportunity.
reiella
Explorer
I personally say it has to be able ot pronounce "Coup de Grace" properly to be able to Coup. Of course, makes me feel bad for the barbarian.
On a more serious note. Animal/Instictual intelligence is alot more advanced than you give credit. Consider the animals that regularly use strategic almost surgical strikes on their prey instead of brute force.
Even more so, consider the carrion hunters, bloodfrenzy, or scavengers. Would you not expect a shark to completely eviscerate a disabled bleeding sack of meat in the water?
[ Edit ]
Over all, I think it's situational and based upon the animal in question really.
On a more serious note. Animal/Instictual intelligence is alot more advanced than you give credit. Consider the animals that regularly use strategic almost surgical strikes on their prey instead of brute force.
Even more so, consider the carrion hunters, bloodfrenzy, or scavengers. Would you not expect a shark to completely eviscerate a disabled bleeding sack of meat in the water?
[ Edit ]
Over all, I think it's situational and based upon the animal in question really.
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Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
reiella said:
I would.
But I'd expect it to do it via chomping it normally, not by pausing, assessing the bleeding figure, and then administering a single, well-placed bite with the intention of decapitation.
In other words, CDG is planned. A normal attack against a helpless foe - prone, 0 Dex, etc. - is something else.
UltimaGabe
First Post
reiella said:
Yes, but there's no difference between a Shark eviscerating a disabled bleeding sack of meat in the water and a Shark eviscerating an active, moving creature in the same situation. Nothing in the Shark's tactics is hinged upon its inability to defend itself.
Same with a tiger, babboon, wolf, whatever- generally, animals can't Coup de Grace. It's not a matter of just killing in one blow, it's a matter of striking a vital point while the opponent can't defend against it.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
I agree with UltimaGabe.
Making a CdG is a tactical decision that animals are not generally competent for. How do they know the downed character is alive or not? My PCs do not usually know, why should they? Do they habitually attempt to CdG downed enemies even if they might already be dead? Do they do so while standing next to a Barbarian that will annihilate the critter with an AoO?
It is better to stick to a reasonable rule of thumb like "attack the nearest threat" than open an ugly can of worms that ultimately will not be more realistic.
Making a CdG is a tactical decision that animals are not generally competent for. How do they know the downed character is alive or not? My PCs do not usually know, why should they? Do they habitually attempt to CdG downed enemies even if they might already be dead? Do they do so while standing next to a Barbarian that will annihilate the critter with an AoO?
It is better to stick to a reasonable rule of thumb like "attack the nearest threat" than open an ugly can of worms that ultimately will not be more realistic.
Malin Genie
First Post
I agree that animals will not CdG. That won't stop them attacking a downed but living foe, though, and the net effect will probably be similar....
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