Can I sustain a power without line of sight to its effect?

[im_robertb]

The situation:
A wizard has used Rolling Thunder:
Rolling Thunder - Wizard Attack 1
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One or two creatures.
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier thunder damage, and you slide the primary target 3 squares.
Miss: Half damage, and you slide the primary target 1 square.
Effect: You conjure a thunderball in 1 square within each primary
target's space. Each thunderball lasts until the end of your next turn.
Each thunderball can make a secondary attack.
Opportunity Action: Melee 1
Trigger: A creature moves out of the thunderball's square.
Secondary Target: The triggering creature
Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 5 thunder damage.
Sustain Minor: Each thunderball persists.

It is currently the wizard's initiative, and she created the thunderballs on her previous turn. What the PCs want to do is this:
1) The wizard sustains the power on her turn.
2) The rogue closes a door, cutting off the wizard's line of sight and line of effect to the thunderballs.
Question A: Do the thunderballs disappear now?
3) The wizard's initiative comes up again.
Question B: Can she sustain the thunderballs again, provided she remains within 10 squares of them?

 

[Mort_Q]

At the end of your turn, if you haven’t spent the required action to sustain the effect, the effect ends.

By RAW, in the example you gave, the Wiz sustained on their turn, which is legal. The next turn, when there is no LOE, the Wiz can't sustain, and the effect ends at the end of that turn.

That is, if you go with the assumption that you must meet the conditions of the original attack to sustain, which if I recall from the last time there was a thread on this, was the consensus.

 

[DracoSuave]

By RAW, in the example you gave, the Wiz sustained on their turn, which is legal. The next turn, when there is no LOE, the Wiz can't sustain, and the effect ends at the end of that turn.

That is, if you go with the assumption that you must meet the conditions of the original attack to sustain, which if I recall from the last time there was a thread on this, was the consensus.

For something to be Rules as Written, the rule actually must be written.

1) You're claiming you need Line of Sight to use the power. This is false. Ranged attacks do not require Line of Sight.

2) You do not need line of sight (or even line of effect) to sustain an effect. Otherwise invisibility would also cancel out any sustained effects on the person, including invisibility.

3) You don't even need line of sight to use the Opportunity Action. Ability to see the triggering opponent is a rule that applies to Opportunity Attacks, not Opp. Actions in general. However, your DM might rightfully declare that a hidden opponent won't allow you to use the trigger.

You DO, however, require line of effect between you and the triggering creature, as the opportunity action is still a ranged effect and you are still the origin square. Cover and Concealment is counted from -your- location, not the thunderball.

All in all tho, a good power.

 

[Mort_Q]

You're claiming you need Line of Sight to use the power.

I made no such claim.

 

[DracoSuave]

I made no such claim.

My bad. The needing LoE to sustain, however, is still false.

 

[Mort_Q]

The needing LoE to sustain, however, is still false.

That seems... odd to me. What's the rationale? What about range? Can you sustain beyond 10 squares?

 

[DracoSuave]

That seems... odd to me. What's the rationale? What about range? Can you sustain beyond 10 squares?

That you're not recasting the power every round, you're merely putting forth enough will to keep it going. It hardly requires aiming and such except when it's time to shoot off a thunderball-related opportunity action.

Powers which go bye-bye like that have a name... 'conjuration.' And the rules that govern that have nothing to do with sustaining, which is simply to override an 'end at end of turn' effect.

Sustaining doesn't include any language saying that you must be able to see or have LoE to the effect, and no language exists stating that effects end if they slip out of LoE.

 

[Bast1ano]

So many conflicting thoughts on this topic. IMO the RAW needs an update for this. They need to be updated because right now a wizard can drop stinking cloud, close the door, pound in some pitons, then leave the room sustaining the power all the way back to town, have a cocoa, and then maybe even plan a holiday to another plane of existence!

In my game LoE, not LoS is required to sustain a power. In this case LoE is determined from the origin square of the ongoing effect, to a max range of 10. This means the wizard CAN sustain the stinking cloud inside the black dragon's darkness, but CAN'T sustain the same spell while on the other side of a wall.

 

[Colmarr]

Sustaining doesn't include any language saying that you must be able to see or have LoE to the effect, and no language exists stating that effects end if they slip out of LoE.

I'm AFB, but I would be very surprised if sustaining a power did not in some way come under "using" that power and that in turn "using" the power did not require LoE to either the power or the target...

 

[Bast1ano]

After doing some more digging in the compendium it appears there is an obscure reference from MM2 that specifies some additional rules for "movable zones". The link to the compendium reference is provided below (requires DDI membership), but essentially it states that at the end of the caster's turn she must be within range and LoE of at least one square of the zone.

What i find odd is that this rule appears to be written only for MOVABLE zones. Also note the subtle but very important detail that is happens at the end of the caster's turn regardless of whether they were in range and LoE when they sustained the power.

http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/glossary.aspx?id=425