Can novels make or break a setting for you?

All else being equal, can novels make a setting more attractive to you?


Keldryn

Adventurer
RangerWickett said:
What are the elements that make a good fantasy novel that most gaming fiction lacks? I admit that the last D&D novel I read all the way through was The Thousand Orcs, at which point I realized I didn't like D&D fiction. I've since gone back and reread the first Dragonlance chronicle, and didn't like it that much either.

The Dragonlance Chronicles were amongst my favourite fantasy novels for many years. But they were also some of the first fantasy novels that I ever read. I was about 12 years old at the time, and I had read The Hobbit and Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain. And many Endless Quest books (TSR's D&D-based take on "Choose Your Own Adventure"), which were what originally led me to D&D. I read a few other fantasy novels in my youth, such as some Thieves' World books and the original Shannarra trilogy, but the overwhelming majority of the novels that I read were TSR's D&D-based books. I'd read a few other fantasy authors as well, such as Raymond E. Feist, whose work doesn't really stray that far from the D&D-esque vision of fantasy. I'd read David Eddings' books as well, but it seemed like everything he wrote after The Belgariad was basically the same story all over again. I didn't do much recreational reading for a few years... guess I kind of got burned out on reading in university. ;)

I didn't particularly enjoy the Dragonlance novels that weren't written by Weis & Hickman. The details of the story were often inconsistent with what had been established previously (particularly The Legend of Huma, IIRC), and the overall tone was just different. When other authors started writing about the actual characters from the original story, I disliked them even more, as they just didn't seem to capture the essence of those characters. This was also one of the main reasons that I stopped reading Star Wars novels and is a major factor in why I don't really care for shared-world novel series in general.

I re-read the Dragonlance Chronicles about 5 or 6 years ago, and found them ... rather amateurish, to be honest. It was one of their first novels, but the writing style was definitely not what I'd remembered, the plotting was clumsy, and there were far too many characters involved. I had re-read Legends right after, and they were far more well-written, although not particularly great. Nostalgia definitely helps keep the characters and story of Dragonlance dear to my heart, because the books themselves aren't terribly good. I read the first of the "War of Souls" books a few years ago, and was pretty disappointed with it. Weis & Hickman have become much better writers than they were when Chronicles came out, but the world of Krynn had become so distorted by 15 years of other authors playing with it and writing about world-shattering events that it didn't really resemble the world and characters that I was familiar with. Plus there were a lot of references to characters and events from books that I didn't care to read by authors that I didn't really like. Again the comparison to Star Wars novels... too many authors who don't really capture the tone of the original work, too many pet characters that try to overshadow the original heroes, too many world-shaking events that seem to be required to one-up all of the previous ones... ugh.

It gets too messy. The timelines get too crowded. The tone of the world changes from one author to another. The original creative vision gets too watered-down and becomes bland and generic. I haven't read every shared-world and/or franchised novel series out there, but every one that I have read has succumbed to the same flaws.

Dragonlance was a bit different, as the world was designed around the story and characters of The War of the Lance -- for both the novels and the modules, concurrently. Outside of that campaign, however, it was a pretty limited world. The continent of Ansalon just wasn't very big. If you're not playing the original modules, then your PCs are likely to be overshadowed by the Heroes of the Lance. Krynn was too narrowly-focused to make for a really good campaign setting for a typical D&D game.

The Forgotten Realms have the opposite problem. It started out, of course, as a background for the short stories that Ed Greenwood used to write. But that was a very different Forgotten Realms than what was originally released in the grey box in 1987, which is again a very different FR from what it is today, after two decades of being a shared-world. It's lost most of its flavour and become a pretty generic melting pot where pretty much anything in fantasy can find a home. There are too many heroes and villains -- many of whom strangely seem to barely even notice each other's presence. The 1987 boxed set was actually a very good setting for a D&D game, with just the right amount of detail, and plenty of memorable NPCs that didn't necessarily overshadow the PCs -- even Elminster seemed to be more of a reclusive sage and not some super-powered behind-the-scenes manipulator of almost everything. 20 years of tales of currently-active legendary heroes makes it more difficult to tailor the world to the PCs. Of course you can throw out what you don't like, but that isn't the only problem. The FR suffers from an acute case of expansionitis and it has lost the unique flavour it once had. I think Ed Greenwood has even said that he didn't really want to write novels about Elminster and didn't find him that interesting a protagonist, but the fans wanted stories about him, so that's what he wrote...

I think that authors generally write their best work when writing about characters and stories (and worlds, if appropriate) entirely of their own creation. There's too much baggage involved in writing stories set in other authors' creations. And, as elitist as it sounds, most of it reads like sanctioned fan-fiction.

But I also haven't read many good fantasy novels lately. I admit that Perdido Street Station was inventive, but I didn't really enjoy it. Then again, I was unemployed at the time, and I think it might just been too depressing.

My wife has introduced me to a lot of great fantasy authors that I'd never read before. Some of my recent favourites are Orson Scott Card's Homecoming saga, Sheri Teper's The Family Tree, and Jaqueline Carey's Kushiel's Legacy... Saga... whatever.

I didn't get into Game of Thrones after giving it 100 pages, but I've been telling myself to give it another try. Otherland was engaging, by it just went on way too long. I like it when a novel has a resolution at the end, y'know?

I really like the Song of Fire and Ice (just finished A Feast for Crows), but it's not a fast-moving story. If you like novels to have resolutions at the end though, you might have a problem with the series, as none of the books have a satisfying conclusion.
 

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Teflon Billy

Explorer
PaulKemp said:
It is. Twilight Falling is book one of the Erevis Cale Trilogy (that is the Trilogy that precedes the next series that begins with Shadowbred) and I think it is a good representation of my writing. And, on the plus side, if you like it there are two more novels already released that follow on its heels.

Paul

EDIT: FYI: Two books featuring Cale (the protagonist) preceded TF, but those past events are referenced in context and should give you no difficulties.

Ok, I wanted to chime back in on this thread before it falls out of the memories of all who posted.

It looks like I owe Paul Kemp an apology. The book I picked up is actually pretty good...easily head-and-shoulders above any other FR book I have read.

The characters are well-realized and behave in believable (and non-"alignment driven") fashions. They are also emotionally-driven characters, which in the past has meant reading internal "whining" from characters written in a manner that would lead you to beleive the author hadn't had any worldly experience in his life, but in this case means that their emotional drives are both credible and readable.

The plot is interesting, involving and "high-stakes" without seeming like another "Good Sets out to Save the World From Evil" scenario.

Also, in the past an Assassin protagonist would've been an excuse for the author to engage in all manner of dark, brooding teenage sulking. The author has avoided that and actually managed to present us with that oldest of chestnuts "the repentant assassin" and made it seem fresh.

Some points of character (Azriim's concern with his personal appearance) seem a bit forced and heavy-handed, but the few bitches I have with the book are vastly overshadowed by the positives on the page.

So yeah, looks like I might need to rethink my "RPG Fiction is Crap" stance, at least in regards to this author.
 
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MojoGM

First Post
And yet another reason why I respect TB and his posts here.

I urge you to read the rest of the trilogy when you can, it really gets better in the 2nd and 3rd books.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I voted "No" because I generally don't read fiction set in RPG campaign worlds, and generally don't buy games set in extant fiction settings.

There are exceptions, but they're rare- I have some of the original Middle Earth CCG cards when it came out (republished as the LOTR CCG), as well as the board game that came out a few years ago (it WAS highly reccomended), I bought Star Wars D20 to get unusual critters etc. for my D&D game, and I have a copy of the original Prime Directive (Star Trek) RPG.

I also have some HeroClix & Star Wars minis, but only because I wanted supers minis for my supers RPG campaigns. I plan to add a few Aliens v Predator minis to my collection for the same reason.

The remaining several hundred lbs of gaming material is pretty much setting neutral.
 


Imruphel

First Post
Teflon Billy said:
(snip) It looks like I owe Paul Kemp an apology. The book I picked up is actually pretty good...easily head-and-shoulders above any other FR book I have read. (snip)
So yeah, looks like I might need to rethink my "RPG Fiction is Crap" stance, at least in regards to this author.

I'm in the same category as you. My campaign world of choice is FR but I detest the fiction (and kept telling all my friends that "RPG fiction is crap")... and then I started to read Paul Kemp's work and realised that he really is a good author.
 

PaulKemp

First Post
Teflon Billy said:
It looks like I owe Paul Kemp an apology. The book I picked up is actually pretty good...easily head-and-shoulders above any other FR book I have read.

The characters are well-realized and behave in believable (and non-"alignment driven") fashions. They are also emotionally-driven characters, which in the past has meant reading internal "whining" from characters written in a manner that would lead you to beleive the author hadn't had any worldly experience in his life, but in this case means that their emotional drives are both credible and readable.

The plot is interesting, involving and "high-stakes" without seeming like another "Good Sets out to Save the World From Evil" scenario.

Teflon Billy,

First, I'm sincerely pleased that the novel worked for you.

Second, I want to offer my thanks to you, both for reading the book with an open mind (and for sharing your thoughts about it afterward) and for acting with such class throughout the discussion on this thread.

Paul
 

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