Can someone explain crippled OGC to me

[Yair]

I also really dislike the BoEM declaration. And I think for largely the same reasons you provided. BUT, none of the above takes a general concept that is fairly standard and basically public domain idea such as "dwarf" and tries to protect it. In your post you called out a difference between dwarf and illithid. I don't see how these are under the dwarf column.

Actually, I called out the difference between an illithid and fireball. But if you don't think the Mirror of Vanities, the War Throne, Tears of the Gods and so on are on the same level of dwarf, then we'll just have to disagree.

I disagree even moreso in this case. To the contrary, the Bad Axe declaration protects nothing mechanical whatsoever. You may be irritated that his declaration requires some effort on the part those who would use his content. And that's your call. But there is no way you can say that protecting nothing at all is even to the level of protection illithid, much less dwarf.

His decleration requires no effort on the part of those who would use his content, as there is no content to be used. I can use his content in the same way I could use an Ars Magica or Palladium book, he releases absolutely no content under the OGL.
That decleration protects the text describing what experience points, EL, CR, and so on are. I consider that to be on the same level as "dwarf" for a D&D-based roleplaying product. Since you don't, we again will have to disagree.

As I understand it all he is trying to protect is his own personal writing style and phrasing. The point is not to withhold OGC, as I think his older declarations would show his support for the concept. However, his concept is that to re-use it, it must be re-written in the subsequent author's own words. They can re-write every bit of it. None of it is protected. But a would-be wiki builder would be forced to do more than cut and paste the material.
He isn't intending to protect any mechanics.

He can't protect any mechanics. Mechanics aren't protectable by the OGL. Not having to rewrite the ideas is precisely the protection the OGL provides, and it is precisely this that his designation wishes to deny. (And succeeds.)
I have no doubt he thinks he is doing the right thing. I just happen to differ.

 

[Psion]

It is the authors belief that the OGL supercedes copyright law, and that he can use the OGL to declare abstract ideas as OGC. If I understood him correctly, he released the work under the OGL without releasing any text as OGC. Only the concepts.

Okay, now I understand a previously baffling statement by you in another thread...

 

[Yair]

Okay, now I understand a previously baffling statement by you in another thread...

Me? Buffling? Inconcievable

 

[BryonD]

Actually, I called out the difference between an illithid and fireball. But if you don't think the Mirror of Vanities, the War Throne, Tears of the Gods and so on are on the same level of dwarf, then we'll just have to disagree.

Whatever, you referenced both dwarf and fireball in your list. If you're going to start hiding behind that kinda pointless minutia, then we aren't going to get anywhere.

That aside, yes, I would most certainly consider Mirror of Vanities, the War Throne, Tears of the Gods, etc to all be specific proper names, whereas dwarf and fireball all general public concepts. If we disagree then that means you are wrong.

His decleration requires no effort on the part of those who would use his content, as there is no content to be used. I can use his content in the same way I could use an Ars Magica or Palladium book, he releases absolutely no content under the OGL.
That decleration protects the text describing what experience points, EL, CR, and so on are. I consider that to be on the same level as "dwarf" for a D&D-based roleplaying product. Since you don't, we again will have to disagree.

He can't protect any mechanics. Mechanics aren't protectable by the OGL. Not having to rewrite the ideas is precisely the protection the OGL provides, and it is precisely this that his designation wishes to deny. (And succeeds.)
I have no doubt he thinks he is doing the right thing. I just happen to differ.

Sorry, your'e just wrong. You are imposing a false interpretation onto his declaration and attacking your own error.

So, yeah, we disagree.

And if you want to stick to your guns, you re-post a fully OGC version of a page of Ars Magica here and I'll do the same with Mythic Heroes. One of us will be compliant and the other will not.

 

[Nightfall]

In a completely unrelated vein, I thought for some reason Crippled OGC was a lot like Cripple Mister Onion from Discworld.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Do you have any example in mind where someone has done something comparable to calling "dwarf" PI, but not comparable to "Illithid"?

I'm seriously curious.

I'm gonna point out the problem with Dwarf Vs Illithid as the test. The Illithid as a whole is considered product identity. The stats were not released without a name.

If the Bottled Whirlwind item is an integral part of the setting, and it had been left entirely out of OGC, that'd be the same. As is, the stats are released without the name, or an alternate.

For example, Fireball vs Tensers Transformation vs (er, whatever it's called in the SRD, Transformation maybe?)

Illithid isn't a good example of "crippled OGC" simply because it's no OGC at all.

 

[BryonD]

I'm gonna point out the problem with Dwarf Vs Illithid as the test. The Illithid as a whole is considered product identity. The stats were not released without a name.

If the Bottled Whirlwind item is an integral part of the setting, and it had been left entirely out of OGC, that'd be the same. As is, the stats are released without the name, or an alternate.

For example, Fireball vs Tensers Transformation vs (er, whatever it's called in the SRD, Transformation maybe?)

Illithid isn't a good example of "crippled OGC" simply because it's no OGC at all.

Actually, I think it is a perfectly good example. WotC simply choose not release the mindflayer stats at all because there ability to ignore the OGL completely permits it.
However, there are other mechanical substitutes for "illithids" out there. So the proper name vs. mechanical pieces difference is reasonable.

 

[Crothian]

I disagree. Non-crippled OGC is much more likely to contribute to better and more integrated product down the line.
If there was no OGC re-use at all, then you would be right.
But the small amount of re-use that there is improves my game.
You can't assume that a specfic instance of OGC would not have been re-used if it hadn't been crippled.

And at the same time, it can't be assumed that good OGC will be used. More often then not it is not used. Also, when it is used and this does bring up a seperate issue, how often do people know of it? Unless one happens to be in the habit of looking at the section 15 of books, then I doubt they do. Publishers don't make it a habit of saying "Uses same rules that came from Book of elf rules". So, as a consumer it just doesn't make that much of a difference.

 

[BryonD]

And at the same time, it can't be assumed that good OGC will be used. More often then not it is not used. Also, when it is used and this does bring up a seperate issue, how often do people know of it? Unless one happens to be in the habit of looking at the section 15 of books, then I doubt they do. Publishers don't make it a habit of saying "Uses same rules that came from Book of elf rules". So, as a consumer it just doesn't make that much of a difference.

Oh, I agree with the reality you are describing.
But I'd rather have a small chance than no chance.

 

[Yair]

And if you want to stick to your guns, you re-post a fully OGC version of a page of Ars Magica here and I'll do the same with Mythic Heroes. One of us will be compliant and the other will not.

I must admit I don't understand what I'm misinterperting about his designation. I've been spending a lot of hours the last day trying to understand it, and you're saying I failed - well, quite possible.
I don't understand how a posting a page of Ars Magica as OGC will contribute to exposing my misunderstanding, but since you apparently do understand the designation and think it will I'll take you up on your challenge. I'll post a page of Ars Magica as a fully OGC version shortly. (You'll excuse me if I choose a minor and short page, I have no intention of making Ars Magica's mechanics OGC.)