Can someone explain Evard's Black Tentacles to me?

[Pyrex]

One shortcut we've used to speed things up is to have the caster roll one grapple check and then apply that result to each creature in the area.

Makes the spell a bit more hit-or-miss, but speeds things up a lot.

 

[Nail]

Note that the tentacles have a BAB of your caster level. This may entitle them to multiple grapple checks per round (when attempting to do damage).

Yoowza. I did not realize that.

Did you hear that? That was multiple grapple checks from a EVT getting houseruled IMC to 1 attack per round, regardless of BAB. The spell is nasty enough at one grapple per opponent per round.

I was just doing the math on this little spell today with some of my players over email. A typical 9th level fighter is grappled 57% of the time, a typical Clr 9 is grappled 84% of the time, and a typical Wiz 9 is grappled 93% of the time. (Assume 9th level caster of EVT.)

Ouch, ouch, ouch! Too nasty, IMO.

 

[kenobi65]

Note that the tentacles have a BAB of your caster level. This may entitle them to multiple grapple checks per round (when attempting to do damage).

Are you sure, or is that your interpretation? Spirtual weapon is also based on the caster's BAB, and explicitly states that it can make multiple attacks if that BAB is high enough. But, the fact that this isn't explicitly stated in the description of Evard's black tentacles makes me wonder.

 

[shilsen]

Since the spell says "they may make a grapple check each round on your turn to deal 1d6+4 points of bludgeoning damage", I would say there's only one attack in the turn.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Are you sure, or is that your interpretation?

Well ...

Treat the tentacles attacking a particular target as a Large creature with a base attack bonus equal to your caster level and a Strength score of 19.

What's the attack bonus of a Large creature with a BAB = CL and a Str of 19?

+CL (BAB) +4 (Str) -1 (SizeMod) = AB

How many attacks per round does a Large creature with a BAB = CL get?

The same number as a Fighter with BAB = CL. Note that, because EBT is a 4th-level spell, the minimum BAB is +7. So, at minimum, EBT attacks at:

+7 +4 -1 = +10 / +5

It doesn't need to specify, in the rules of the text, that EBT gets multiple attacks because it says it is "treat[ed] ... as a Large creature." It therefore follows all the rules of Large creatures.***

If its first attack in a round is a hit (touch attack at +10), it can attempt to grapple. Its grapple check is:

+ CL (BAB) + 4 (Str) + 4 (SizeMod), or, at minimum, +7 + 4 + 4 = +15

If it gets a hold, it does 1d6+4 damage - as is normal for a Large creature. Then, it can attempt a second grapple at +10.

If its first attack misses, it can try again (touch attack at +5)***, and if that is successful, it can attempt a grapple check at +10.

*** - The only thing needing to be cleared up is whether or not the tentacles act like a Large creature attacking with a natural weapon or whether it acts as a Large creature with the Improved Grapple feat (though without the +4 bonus). If it acts like a creature with a natural weapon, then it only has one chance to establish a hold each round. In either case, it can attempt multiple grapple checks per round once it has established a hold, just like everything.

 

[kenobi65]

The only thing needing to be cleared up is whether or not the tentacles act like a Large creature attacking with a natural weapon or whether it acts as a Large creature with the Improved Grapple feat (though without the +4 bonus). If it acts like a creature with a natural weapon, then it only has one chance to establish a hold each round. In either case, it can attempt multiple grapple checks per round once it has established a hold, just like everything.

OK, then...where do you get the rule that says creatures with natural weapons get iterative grapple checks, when they don't get iterative "regular" attacks?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

OK, then...where do you get the rule that says creatures with natural weapons get iterative grapple checks, when they don't get iterative "regular" attacks?

Here:

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

Creature who are attacking with natural weapons do not get iterative attacks with those weapons because that is a special "feature" of natural weapons.

However:

If You’re Grappling
If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

When does something's BAB allow it multiple attacks? When it's +6 or more.

Base Attack Bonus: Add the base attack bonuses acquired for each class to get the character’s base attack bonus. A resulting value of +6 or higher provides the character with multiple attacks.

For an example of a creature that's BAB allows it multiple attacks, so long as it isn't attacking with Natural weapons, examine the Balor entry in the SRD (under Demons, of course!):

BAB / Grapple: +20 / +36

Full Attack: +1 vorpal longsword +31/+26/+21/+16 melee (2d6+8/19–20) and +1 flaming whip +30/+25 melee (1d4+4 plus 1d6 fire plus entangle); or 2 slams +31 melee (1d10+7)

Note that all of the Balor's BAB comes from outsider "levels."

It would therefore be able to make 4 offensive grapple checks on its turn, at: +36 / +31 / +26 / +21.

 

[Kordak]

Skip Williams take on this

Looks to me like anyone entering the area of the spell basically provokes an AoO.

Y'know I asked Skip Williams about this very thing during the "Ask Skip" chat session last week. Here is what was said:

You say, "Wow...I get to ask another one! An easy one then...OK, Evard's Black Tentacles and AoOs...do they (tentacles area) get AoOs vs anything moving through their area? How about against those who just succesfully avoided a grapple and now are trying to move out of the AoE? Also, more than one AoO vs different creatures or no? /ga"
skip_williams says, "Thinking ...."
You say, "any prizes for stumper Qs? ;-)"
skip_williams says, "Here's how I read the 3.5 version of the spell. . ."
skip_williams says, "When the field of tentacles appears, everyone in the area is subjected to a grapple attack from the tentacles."
skip_williams says, "After the initial round, the tentacles make an additional grapple attack against enything in the area (theough the spell text seems to imply that only creatires that enter the area get grappled)."
skip_williams says, "To be attacked, a creature must be in the spell's area during your turn."
skip_williams says, "Creatures that move through the area when it's not your turn don;t get grapples, but the tentacles slow them down as noted in the spell description."
skip_williams says, "The tentacles do not make attacks of opportunity."
skip_williams says, "If someone manages to get all they way through the field when it's not your tourn and is not in the area when your turn comes. There are no tentacle attacks on that creature. /ga"
You say, "OK thanks for the clarification"

What he says makes sense...So, it looks like no AoO...oh well.

Thanks,
Kordak

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Y'know I asked Skip Williams about this very thing during the "Ask Skip" chat session last week. Here is what was said:

Good for Skip, but I think he may have forgotten about this part:

Any creature that enters the area of the spell is immediately attacked by the tentacles.

I notice you didn't specifically quote that text in your question to Skip, so possibly it might have affected his answer. Who knows, eh?

 

[kenobi65]

Patryn, I see your logic. I'd feel better if there were a FAQ answer on it, spelling it out decisively, but it's an imperfect world.

Though, the note from Kordak, relating his chat with Skip, would suggest that EBT still only gets one grapple per round versus each character in its AoE, as he twice says "a grapple attack."