Can someone explain what "1st ed feel" is?

[Henry]

...So, although I'd agree to a certain extent with what the posters here have said, the market seems to disagree quite firmly -- setting is incredibly important to a roleplaying game in order for it to maintain sales. The current situation, with the profligeration of d20 settings and games has so far not settled down into a predictable market pattern.

While I certainly agree there is a large market for heavy-setting adventures, It has been stated (by market research done by WotC Prior to the year 2000) that the RPG market of the time was nowhere near as large as it was back in the early to mid 1980's. Heavy-setting adventures were playing to vastly reduced crowds, and getting the majority of those crowds. It says more about the way the market segment shifted in those 10 years (from approximately 1990 to 1999) than it does about the tastes of the majority of gamers. Modules like "For Duty and Deity" and supplements like "Volo's guide to Waterdeep" weren't exactly picking up new gamers at the time.

However, the point I still make is valid...if modules without setting or story or much of anything except some monsters in rooms are so great because it allows DMs to make up there own stuff, why not just have the DM make the whole thing up and not mess around with this farce of producing modules? Because there's a dearth of mechanics out there? Balderdash! There's more mechanics than anyone can possibly absorb out there, even without new mechanics in modules. I doubt, although I don't have any of them, that modules with a "1st edition feel" are truly like 1st edition modules in many ways, because I think the market has moved beyond them except in terms of nostalgia.

The same point could be made about heavy-setting adventures - for me, atmosphere is rather (obscenely) easy to create, and in fact preferred, since my campaign's atmosphere will differ from yours - but I have a harder time setting up a really intricate mystery-plot, or a really crafty challenge for PC's to overcome. For me, older modules offered that, while "newer" ones did not.

I for one, do not wish to DM the Forgotten Realms; I do not wish tons of setting references that I will have to change and use differently. It is one thing to not want to use a pit trap that makes clever use of reverse gravity spells and acid baths, or to not use a complex interaction between a Generic Cleric and his generic minions, and the Generic Town he is hiding in as a respectable advisor to the Generic King. It is quite another thing to only change the Names and Gods involved, and the Players STILL recognize Faerun or Krynn beneath all those thinly-veiled name changes, because of the detail the setting is oozing.

My point is that both settings are valid, and "1st edition feel" has such a viable market of players behind it, it would be foolish for a company such as Necromancer Games not to take advantage of it. Clark Petersen defnitely has the right idea in how the company is headed, and how is does not intimately link their Modules to his or Bill's home campaigns, but rather provide DM's with original and memorable challenges to introduce to their players, in their own settings.

You mileage will and obviously does vary from mine. There is a definite market for both types of settings, which is proven by the wild success of D&D and its generic modules, and the modest yet quite vocal success of Hackmaster, as well as the continued health and success of White Wolf's settings.

 

[Akunin]

For me, the "1e feel" is the play-by-the-seat-of-your-pants style of gaming - rushing into the room, fighting the monsters, getting the treasure, and kicking in the next door.

DM: Okay, the treasure consists of two +2 swords, a +2 suit of armor, a +3 shield, 2500 Copper, 3000 Silver, 1500 Gold, 500 Electrum, and 500 Platinum. Oh, and a Staff of Fireballs.

Player 1: Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Player 2: Yep. Leave the coins, and let's grab the staff, those weapons, and the armor. It's time to go find that dragon!

 

[Jasperak]

6 seconds

 

[Desdichado]

My point is that both settings are valid, and "1st edition feel" has such a viable market of players behind it, it would be foolish for a company such as Necromancer Games not to take advantage of it. Clark Petersen defnitely has the right idea in how the company is headed, and how is does not intimately link their Modules to his or Bill's home campaigns, but rather provide DM's with original and memorable challenges to introduce to their players, in their own settings.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with what they're doing: and I agree that there is a viable (if perhaps not the biggest) segment of gamers who want those types of adventures. If I were one to buy adventures, and if I were one who had an interest in playing D&D where characters went down in a hole and killed some monsters (which I don't, really -- I get easily bored when games turn to that paradigm) then I would rather have the same kind of modules that you prefer. However, I'd rather ignore both and simply make up my own stuff, but that's just my preference.

You mileage will and obviously does vary from mine. There is a definite market for both types of settings, which is proven by the wild success of D&D and its generic modules, and the modest yet quite vocal success of Hackmaster, as well as the continued health and success of White Wolf's settings.

I think, as I mentioned earlier, that the market hasn't shaken out the effect of a new (and good, for a change) D&D system, and even moreso, the effect of the d20 license. There's no telling what that'll do to the companies (and games) in the market today. However, I'd guess that when it does settle down, that setting will sell the game, just as it has for the last several years.

 

[Talvisota]

6 seconds in a segment.

"A significant portion of D&D players couldn't care less about cool settings - we want modules we can use in our own crappy fantasy worlds. And 1st edition adventures were nice in this respect - generic, adaptable, full of cool ideas... "

This is my opinion of 1e, too. Sometime around 1990 or a little afterwards, products became intertwined in published worlds and I began to have trouble adapting products to my home campaign. A business plan, of course, and understandable perhaps from a company whose goal is profit.

What I think the "2e feel" is? All those other gamers I met (starting about that time) who kept acting like what TSR wrote in supplements was law, even in your campaign. One player in my group tried to tell me what Drow were all about and saying that I was doing things wrong; you see, he had the special handbook for Drow, and it said blah blah blah. Perhaps this should be called "The Drizzt Effect."

If indeed The Industry is watching - take heed. Why do we STILL keep referring to GDQ (well, maybe not Q) and T1-4 as the best modules? Think about it: generic setting, one product that allows play for many levels, long, build up challenges, and just what the DM needs to surround it with his own style.

Talvisota

 

[Voneth]

I enjoy an occasional game of Diablo, and used to play Everquest last year, but left both. Why? Because they were boring and mindless. You performed the same activities ad infinitum to get the same result. I have a friend who still plays Everquest, and he has several 30th to 50th level characters. I don't see how he does it. I have more fun with a filing cabinet.

Unfortuntely, most "DM"s I had never added much, if any additional reasons to our motivation for hitting the dungeon. They played it straight from the module and then it was a rumor or legend to take us to the next dugeon, which in some respects has less to it than Everquest does now.

As far as the advantage of 1st edition for it being generic and "droppable" in any game, I had that happen to me in a game last year. The GM started very promising with his own adventures, and then suddenly he did nothing by recycled 1st ed adventures over and over. Suddenly it was the old thing again, dungeon, rumor, dungeon, fetch an item for a king, dungeon. It didn't help that we all knew the adventures already.

 

[Ulrick]

For the 1st time in about 12 years I played 1ed. just yesterday (Sunday 10th).

It does have a different feel to it.

1ed isn't all flashy and edgy like latter Editions. It doesn't have all kinds of optional rules to make uber-characters (unless you count the Barbarian and Cavalier class--but I won't get into that).
And there were limited choices for your character. For instance, a Thief couldn't assign his own thieving skills--there's a table for that. And of course, Demi-humans can multiclass while humans cannot (they can dual class).

The artwork, although simpler compared to latter editions, invoked and inspired my imagination better that the artwork of latter editions.

There's a darker tone to first edition...similar to the Elric Saga, not Happy Happy Joy Joy Realms (although 1ed Realms in my opinion had that dark tone too). The books of 1ed editon feel like tomes of "Eldritch Wizardry."

The adventure we were one didn't feature a dungeon (as of yet). It started off with us being captured on a yellow sailed ship of the Slave Lords! We were 0-level and we had to escape!

Yes, the DM is going to put us through some classic modules such as the Slaver Series and even the Temple of Elemental Evil. I can't wait.

I had a great time playing 1ed. And I look foward to playing it again soon.

In conclusion, I have to say "Don't bash 1ed. Bash 2ed. And although I feel that 3e is superior to the other two, it just doesn't feel "right."

Ulrick

 

[Aaron L]

I know exactly what you mean with the "dark tone" of 1E and the 1E FR. It had a sublimely "grey", warped Earth reality to it. Like our world, but with a "not quite natural" element in addition to the fantasy. Very much a Moorcock and Lovecraft feel. The illustrations always evoked thoughts of the danse macabre with me. I loved it.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Old school vs. New School

I think the guys who talk about the new school being about the setting is right. There's a thread over at the gaming report with a bunch of industry bigwigs talking about this:

http://www.gamingreport.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=27

You should do yourself a favor and hop over there to read it, because I think it's a wonderful analysis about why TSR/WW floundered and actually made the industry smaller in the early 90s with the emphasis on published settings versus game product.

I've thought about some of those issues, but from the discussion over there I must say that Ryan Dancey and the rest have REALLY thought about it. I have to really applaud Ryan Dancey and the folks at WoTC for having the courage to drag D&D back to its roots. And by that I don't mean just "back to the dungeon", but with an emphasis on providing game rules, not flavor text.

Here's one product idea that Ryan talks about that makes me wish he was still running WoTC:
"The other would be the book I keep suggesting that WotC consider publishing: Core Book IV: Game Designer's Guide. The GDG would contain all the systems and mathematical analysis used to construct 3e, and explain how the system works at a low level, and how to add to it and extend it correctly. That book would be a guide to effective encounter, scenario, story and world design, all using the d20 System"

Hot damn, Ryan, make it happen! I don't care if that book cost $100, I'll buy it. Even if I was forced to relearn linear algebra and how to setup systems of differential equations again, I'd buy the book. It'd be like being given an assembly-level tool for d20.

 

[Killer Shrike]

1st edition feel means all players and the DM agree to only use thier right brain for the course of the adventure. No logical left brain thinking allowed.

Most 1st edition adventures seemed to be designed so that copious amounts of alchohol or other chemicals consumed while playing would make the whole thing make much more sense.

1st edition was all about Elf, Dwarf, Fighter, and MU (names pretty much optional) wandering thru randomly assembled & populated dungeons in the pursuit of things to kill and stuff to take. And stirges hiding in the rafters. And lots of stupid giant animals, particularly poisoned rats. Kill or be killed. Stupid pointless death traps at -7. More death traps. Occasionally, an entire dungeon made of 3 encounters and a double box full of death traps. After a few months of this, you leveled up, but only got something for leveling every 3 levels or so.

Really, think Diablo minus the computer and you have a decent grasp on the majority of 1st edition games.

On the other hand, for mindless fun you couldnt beat it.