Can the hide skill be used in this situation?

[pawned79]

As a DM, I had a perused vampire spider climb onto a vaulted ceiling and when my player came in, I gave him a spot check verses the vampire’s hide check. When he failed, I dropped the vamp on him as a surprise round. My player disagreed with my decision because the room was well lit (true) and the vampire didn’t have any cover to hide behind. My argument was that it was an usual location, and people don’t naturally look to the ceiling when determining where their prey went.

As a player, I wished to sneak into a jail to assassinate a sleeping prisoner. Peering around the corner, I saw the small cell on the other side of a small room, and a guard sitting at a table reading a book. The room was well lit. I told the DM that what I would like to do is use an item to begin levitating, then float up to the ceiling and, using move silently and hide, sneak around the corner, over the guards head, over to the dark corner of the jail, descend into the dark corner, and then assassinate the sleeping prisoner. He told me that I would not be able to do that, because the ceiling is well lit and there is nothing to hide behind. I couldn’t hide on the ceiling.

Many times, as a player, I’ve had my rogue position himself above ledges over doorways in well lit rooms to gain a surprise advantage and have been denied the hide option. As a DM, I rule that it is acceptable to use the hide skill in this way. Please, I would love to hear your opinions on the subject?

Patrick

 

[Felix]

Rules as Written: No dice, you can't hide without cover or concealment.

House Rule: Take a -10 to -20 on your Hide check, and you can do it.

I was playing a game of Hide-and-go-seek during a power outage and the winner hadn't climbed into a cabinet or a wardrobe, but rather was sitting indian style on top of the fridge, and nobody looked up to notice him. The only reason he got caught was that after two hours, his leg cramped and he yelped.

So, go with a -15 to your Hide check, but know that it's a House Rule, and not RAW.

 

[Marimmar]

Well, by the rules you cannot Hide without concealment or cover. OTOH I wouldn't even grant someone a Spot check when they entered a room with something hanging from the ceiling. When they specifically told me to take a look at the ceiling before entering I would tell them that something is up there waiting for them. A high Spot skill shouldn't be an excuse for being careless.

As for your other question, as long as your character is outside the guard's field of vision you could bypass him with a Move Silently check. In case he looks up, he would see your character without a Spot check.

~Marimmar

 

[Salogel]

The case where you're waiting for an opponent to come through the door, only to drop down on him in a suprise round, is legal I think. After all, you do have full cover to anyone coming from the other side of the door.

And if there IS a route through the room where you don't pass through the guard's line of sight, it should be possible too, with an opposed spot check.

Say you want to sneak over the guard to stab the prisoner, but the ceiling is only ten foot high, then you won't get away with it. However, if you're in a cathedral, and you levitate way up high and then pass over him, he may not see you at all. So I guess it's all about his line of sight.

 

[FireLance]

The problem about a house rule that not looking at the ceiling means you don't automatically spot a creature that has no cover or concealment to hide behind is that you can only use it once. Because, every encounter after that, the PCs will just say, "Oh, and we make sure to look at the ceiling, at the floor, above us, behind us, etc." So, to gain a short-term advantage against the players, you've caused long-term distrust and made it more DM vs player. This is not something that I would recommend, but YMMV.

 

[Marimmar]

It is not a short term advantage, it rewards clever thinking. It cannot be that the only things players have to do is to refer to their character sheets and roll some number. Same goes for searching a room, even someone without +20 in Search may find something when looking in the right place. IMO having someone say, I take 20 and search the room is incredibly boring, instead having someone find a hidden treasure because of clever thinking is much more rewarding.

Back on topic, if the PCs just blundered into the room with the vampire hanging from the ceiling I wouldn't allow for a Spot check. If they stated that they take a look around before entering I would tell them about the vampire hanging from the ceiling (he's not hidden after all). It's not player vs DM, it's just a bit realism. Besides in my old 2e days we always had a rear guard explicitly watching out for threats from the rear. You never know...

~Marimmar

 

[Felix]

...blundered into the room with the vampire hanging from the ceiling I wouldn't allow for a Spot check...

Why not? Your player might not be thinking about ceiling, but a high-wisdom Ranger with 15 ranks of spot shouldn't be penalized because of the player.

Raise the DC, impose a circumstance penalty, or whatever, but don't deny the PC his 15 ranks in spot because you don't think he would look up.

 

[pawned79]

Someone once coined, "I look up. I look down. I look all around. Do I see, hear, feel, smell, taste or sense anything unusual?"

After the phrase was said a dozen times in the first game, we came to a clarification that it isn't necessary. As DMs (we all take turns DMing episodes in our story arch) we are not going to attempt to screw anyone over this issue. We use the spot/listen skills all the time. Characters with lots of skill in them traditionally see everything, and those that don't, traditionally don’t see things (my character for example). We've come to rely on curtain characters to have "good eyes." The player feels himself lucky to have a very high rank in spot. We all feel it would wrong the "character" to not allow him spot rolls to see things that other gaming groups would say, "Oh, I'm sorry. You never said you were specifically looking up."

Let us take a cinematic example of my issue that I’m talking about. In the movie Spiderman, Willem Dafoe as Norman Osborn comes into the room and finds nothing of note. In actuality, Tobey Maguire as Peter Parker has spider climbed onto the ceiling. Willem got a spot check verses Tobey’s hide check. Mr. Dafoe failed. He leaves the room. What his spot check does get him though is: it allowed him to notice the drop of blood on the ground. Unfortunately for good ol’ Willem, Tobey has moved silently while spider climbing across the room and out the window by the time Willem thinks to look up. Drama! The scene works and appears realistic. It would appear unrealistic if he had walked into the room and the DM ruled, [Using the Nutty Professor Voice] “You go into the room. You see Spiderman on the ceiling in plan site. His mask is off. It is Peter Parker!”

Comments & Opinions?

Patrick

 

[Targos]

As others have stated by the RAW there's no chance to hide. However, as a houserule I would use a listen check instead of a spot check. You sneak up behind somebody in a place with no cover/concealment. If he looks your way he sees you, no spot rolls needed. If he doesn't look your way, still no spot roll, because he didn't even look. However, he might hear you so there would be a listen check. This situation is very subjective on whether or not they might look over their shoulder. They might not have a reason to look behind them, but its likely they would at some point. This scenerio can easily be foiled, but it gives the PC a chance if the DM wants them to have one. If a PC is exploring a dungeon I'd expect them to be looking all directions as monsters may be lurking anywhere. (Likewise for any gaurd who's doing his job.) A shopkeeper wouldn't expect somebody to cling to the ceiling when they lock up for the night. (assuming tall ceilings, 10' would still be within plain view IMO) In any event I'd expect the PC to act immediately.

 

[pawned79]

I just wanted to clarify something. About 70% of our games is RP. We try to use the rules as much as possible even when RPing. Bluff/sense motive checks with the NPCs (and PCs sometimes). Spot/hide, listen/move silently, spot/slight of hand, etc etc etc.... We go many games without having a combat (and that is a noon to midnight Saturday game session).

What is urking me so much, which is what I'm truely posting on, is that by the rules, noone can hide on the ceiling in a well lit room (aka Spiderman). On the other hand, you can hide under a desk with someone sitting at it with a combonation of hide, move silently, and escape artist (aka Back to the Future 2).

What should I do, who should I ask, where should I post, what do y'all have to say that I could convence my group to allow a hide check without concealment in unusual places? Or you might have something to say to convence me that you can't do it. Either way is fine as long as it is resolved.

Patrick