Can the hide skill be used in this situation?

[Saeviomagy]

Well, I stand by my opinion unless the player states that he takes a look around he will walk right into the ambush of the vampire. When he states, 'I take a look around before entering the room, can I see the vampire somewhere.' Bingo no more surprised hero. After all the vampire hangs in plain sight, no need for a Spot vs Hide roll.

That would prompt the entire party saying "even when we don't specify, we're looking around" after the first time. Just like the party has a "door macro" whenever we open a door. We have to do it, because frankly the DM's a jerk about it. We look at the door. We listen to the door. The rogues search the door. They check whether it's locked or not. If it's locked, tell us.

It would probably earn some insults and profanities. I suppose you also require your fighters to say what weapon they swing with every single blow, or they mistakenly attack unarmed? And that if someone doesn't say "oh, and I dodge around a bit", dex bonus doesn't apply?

As to the problem in general?

When the vampire hid on the roof, and the character enters the room? The vampire DID have cover when he hid, and was therefore hidden when he started his surprise attack.

Other situations - if the ceiling is not well lit, great. If there's a chandelier, great.

If the guard on duty is not particularly alert, then I'd probably rule that a bunch of things are providing cover. His eyelids, the newspaper he's reading, the chair he's sitting on and the like. If he is alert, think of an actual plan.

 

[Tellerve]

I agree with Saeviomagy about the vampire having concealment/cover before they walked in. And as per the raw you see everyone automatically if there isn't anything blocking your view, but I might still have them do the spot check as normal. *shrugs*

And yes, the hide part from complete adventurer wants you to move from cover/concealment to cover/concealment. The example they give is of a rogue sneaking past a hallway in which down a little ways are some orcs sitting around or something (i don't recall what). In any case, the hallway is 5' blah blah blah they give a mathematical example with the new rule.

I really would love to house rule camoflage but since that is apparently just an amazing ability in 3.5 I guess that isn't the best idea. hmm, 3.0 might have had it better.

Tellerve

 

[hero4hire]

I would've never complained about the situation. Its a classic Spider-man trick. If he had looked at the ceiling and the Vampire could still Hide somehow, then there is an issue.
The rules may not support the decision but common sense does. Heck, at one point thats all us DMs really ever had was a loose set of rules and a lotta arbritrary decision making.

 

[RedShirtNo5]

Just like the party has a "door macro" whenever we open a door. We have to do it, because frankly the DM's a jerk about it.

Our door opening macro is usually invoked by "we scratch and sniff the door". The DM knows what to do.

And that if someone doesn't say "oh, and I dodge around a bit", dex bonus doesn't apply?

Yeah, one time when the DM started pulling "If you don't explicitly say it, your character doesn't do it", we started half-joking, "My heart beats. I breathe. My heart beats. My liver does whatever its supposed to do."

I mostly agree with Saeviomagy and Tellerve. I don't mind having a spider drop off the cieling to surprise me if my PC is first level. But after first level, I figure my character is looking around.

As DM, I generally permit hiding against distracted opponents. This handles the "orcs arguing over the loot as PC sneaks down the empty hallway" situation. I might give a creature on an empty cieling a hide check, but only at a large minus or if the PCs had to search a large number of empty rooms such that they might get inattentive or lazy.

-RedShirt

 

[Marimmar@Home]

Oooookay, being compared to a jerk is like being called a jerk.

My reasoning for not assuming that a player character is doing something constantly is that it gets abused sooner or later. This tends to end in situations where the players start arguing that their character would have known this and that and not done it. Well here's my take on that piece of crap. Either you the player act for your character or the character won't act. If you forget something, too bad, you could have written it down, when you fail to explicitly state that you're looking at the ceiling, you won't see the vampire before he hits you. If you don't like that play Diablo.

On the other hand what's good for the goose is good for the gander. When your character is hanging under the ceiling, trying to get past a guard, your outside his regular field of vision. The guard may Listen you but unless he looks straight up he won't see you. Only because D&D got rid of facing doesn't mean that your characters have all-around vision like a beholder.

My opinion is probably too first edition stylish but you can read the play example given in the DMG on page 8-9.

~Marimmar

 

[MerakSpielman]

Thing is, in a D&D world where things fly, spider climb, levitate, and whatnot, it'd be recklessly foolish NOT to pay attention in all directions.

I would expect checking up would be a standard and expected action. This goes doubly if the party is in a dangerous/dungeon setting, and it goes triply if they know they are chasing a foe with the Spider Climb ability.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

My opinion is probably too first edition stylish but you can read the play example given in the DMG on page 8-9.

Oh - you mean the one where the tiny spiders are Hiding in the webbing strewn across the ceiling?

The one where they have cover / concealment?

Yeah, I remember that one.

 

[Marimmar]

You just remember a fraction. It is the story where the players look up at the ceiling and do not specifically ask about the webbing the DM described and the DM therefore denies a Spot check.

~Marimmar

 

[Wish]

I suppose you also require your fighters to say what weapon they swing with every single blow, or they mistakenly attack unarmed?

I think we've all had that DM at some point in our gaming careers. In my case, it went something like this:

"I throw a grenade into the room," says me.

"Ok, that ends your turn. Goon A picks it up, pulls the pin and throws it back. Everybody in the party is caught in the blast and takes damage."

 

[Kemrain]

I think we've all had that DM at some point in our gaming careers. In my case, it went something like this:

"I throw a grenade into the room," says me.

"Ok, that ends your turn. Goon A picks it up, pulls the pin and throws it back. Everybody in the party is caught in the blast and takes damage."

This sounds like a great way to hurt feelings and ruin fun. If a GM did that to me, I'd want to walk out on them. I mean, a snide "Did you remember to pull the pin?" is assinine enough. Simply assuming you didn't, and damaging the rest ofthe party, that crosses the line from abusively amusing to just plain mean.

The Rules say you need Cover or Consealment. Your skull provides people behind you with cover. Facing rules have been stripped out of combat, but before initiative is rolled, your eyestalks are retracted firmly up inside your nasal cavity, and you have but your two eyes to see with. Vampire on cieling gets a hide check, sure, at a penalty, sure, say you're looking up and get a bonus to your roll, sure. People fail to notice obvious things all the time. Less than obvious things get a roll. Checking the cieling is smart, and can save your life, but your Spot check assumes you're spotting to the best of your ability, which means looking up.

Break the damg rules if you need to, just make sure the players can break the rules in the same way to their benefit. Change rules so everyone can use them.

BTW, if you just give Polar Bears the Camoflage ability, they can hide in a field of snow no problem.

- Kemrain the Unseen.