Can the Vampire Class make new vampires?

[DracoSuave]

Given that not all monster Vampires have the ability to create spawn, and that the PC Vampire is not one of those vampire types, then how is it unbelievable that there's now Vampire Class powers that allow you to do what some Vampire Lords can do?

That's like asking why an eladrin fighter class can't do everything a Shiere Knight can do. Could it be because they are not the same things?

No? Okay.

 

[Dice4Hire]

No blood drinking, no healing between encounters... seems like a penelty to me.

That is purely mechanical. My point stands.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I disagree.

It's a nod to the idea that they are no longer part of the living world, and are in fact only a creature of death forever cursed with trying to experience life by taking it from others.

Vampires to me aren't creatures of logic.

They're the embodiment of the raw emotional power of the folly of trying to steal life after death. The fear of death itself and our powerless inability to stop it combined with our fascination with the afterlife.

We can disagree if you want, but to me trying to boil that experience into a weird science/logic thing is the very antithesis of what it is.

Then we'll disagree- to me, based on my readings of legend, myth and fiction, the supernatural has rules. Even vampires.

If you look back, every bit of vampire legend has rules, many of which have gotten diluted or forgotten or outright changed as vampire became less creatures of legend and more creatures of fiction. Originally, for instance, it wasn't a mere wooden stake through the heart vampire feared- it had to be made of ash, hawthorn or yew- woods to which certain mystical properties had been ascribed. (And that doesn't even get into the whole beheading and stuffing the mouth with garlic and/or the Eucharist.)

The "it's magic" explanation as to why the drain works differently depending on whether the target is friend or foe is no explanation at all in this case. Granted- some in this thread HAVE put forth a possible explanation- but they shouldn't have to. That is a why that should be explained in the class details.

 

[Bold or Stupid]

That is purely mechanical. My point stands.

My Sorceror turning her nose up at the idea of using a sword due to her 8 str and lack of proficency is purely mechanical but i can use the mechanics inform my RP. As I see it having to ask to bite your allies so you can heal is a major RP issue. It's all in how you play it.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Then we'll disagree- to me, based on my readings of legend, myth and fiction, the supernatural has rules. Even vampires.

Sure. But those rules are more of the type "Breaking a mirror gives you 7 years bad luck" than "Blood is red because it has iron-based pigments." At the end of the day, they why supernatural rules eventually default to someone shrugging and saying "That's just the way it is" and with no testable hypothesis left.

Being a Socratic sort of Westerner with all that is just going to send you down a rabbit hole eventually. You can't make supernatural events into science and expect the seams to line up.

The "it's magic" explanation as to why the drain works differently depending on whether the target is friend or foe is no explanation at all in this case. Granted- some in this thread HAVE put forth a possible explanation- but they shouldn't have to. That is a why that should be explained in the class details.

Ye gods, NO! Last thing I want is all the flavor buttoned up so that I have to convince the rules lawyers to let me file the serial numbers off to make it interesting or consistent with a given game environment. Specifying all this stuff to the nth degree robs it of both its magic and its playability across multiple environments. YMMV, of course. But I'd rather have working mechanics and the freedom to rig the narrative details to my liking than be forced by the book to specific narrative details.

As it stands, you can play Hammer Horror vamps, latter-day post-Whedon tortured soul vamps, and various other sub-archetypes without having to re-build the whole thing from scratch. That's a feature, not a bug.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But those rules are more of the type "Breaking a mirror gives you 7 years bad luck" than "Blood is red because it has iron-based pigments."

Actually, no.

Those rules often have an internal logic- you just have to dig. The woods used against vampires, for instance, all had reasons for being used. I don't recall them all, but ash, in particular, was of use against vampires because of pre-Christian myths in which it was chosen by the gods as raw material for creating humans, and a residual divine energy remains within the wood.

 

[Scribble]

Actually, no.

Those rules often have an internal logic- you just have to dig. The woods used against vampires, for instance, all had reasons for being used. I don't recall them all, but ash, in particular, was of use against vampires because of pre-Christian myths in which it was chosen by the gods as raw material for creating humans, and a residual divine energy remains within the wood.

Original folklore was mostly just a "stake" to keep the dead from rising out of their graves. Wood was just cheap/easy.

Later the ideas about various woods were added on.

I think the argument here is because of different concepts of "logic."

The idea that flies are generated by rotting meat has a sort of internal "logic," but it falls apart on careful observation, and ends up being just as "real" as some other guys random explanation.

You can pretty much generate this form of logic with anything you want based on anything you want, which is the issue I have when this is applied to game design.

You essentially end up with what one guy thinks is "logical" but it leaves the door open to arguments about why it's not, and something else obviously is (again usually whatever would make the arguers character more powerful.)

I prefer a game designed to give me a balanced rule, upon which I can put my own "logic"that seems cool.

IE blood taken from an enemy vrs not an enemy can be logiced into blood freely given vrs not freely given because that feels cool.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Original folklore was mostly just a "stake" to keep the dead from rising out of their graves. Wood was just cheap/easy.

While I'm pretty certain you're not right, I cannot find a source that is definitive either way.

I prefer a game designed to give me a balanced rule, upon which I can put my own "logic"that seems cool.

IE blood taken from an enemy vrs not an enemy can be logiced into blood freely given vrs not freely given because that feels cool.

And again, I don't have a problem with that logic per se, just 1) with mere "its magic" handwaves and/or 2) within the context of the game that has vampires without that distinction (IOW, exception based design).

Going back to the original question, the class creates vampires that cannot spawn others of their kind, even at epic level (unless I've missed something). This flies in the face of most Western vampire lore- the kind codified (at least in part) in the MM entry. Those MM vamps do have access to spawning vampires 2 ways: via blood drain to 0 (without killing) or via a ritual. And BOTH are limited to Vampire Lords- Level 11 Elite lurkers- only.

And yet a 30th level vampire (class) character can't do likewise? That's jarring.

 

[Grydan]

My suggestion: write up a vampire article for Dragon. The class could use some feat support anyway. Add in some vampire-themed magic items, some rituals, maybe even a Vampire Lord Epic Destiny that lets you turn your foes into vampires all you want.

"When you die, you reappear in your coffin. Unless you are impaled through the heart with a wooden stake, you rise again when night falls..."

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